cause and effect - conscious choice or not...

[kizkiznobite]

ok the debate is this and i will add to it in stages...


this has been about for some years - since 1904 actually - so anyone that reads Darwin's contempories will have possibly come across it before

stage one of the scenario

dog is in favourite chair on an evening in masters study - master is enteraining a guest for dinner - after dinner they go into study with their brandy and cigars...dog is shooed off the chair and settles by the fire...

his master sits in the chair and discussion commences..
dog goes to door and whines at the door to go out for a pee..
master rises from chair to let him out
dog gets into chair and the master and guest both comment on the self satisfied look on dogs face....

so 1st stage of debate

did the dog 'plan' this action and then actually put that plan into action and was the 'pleasure' the self satisfaction of the 'win' activated by memory?

thoughts and discussion 

[*Nat*]

Lol I reckoned he planned it  He was obviously comfy in his masters chair and wanted it back and knew by whining and the door was a way of getting hiim out of the chair  Clever pooch me thinks  Do we know what breed the dog is?

[kizkiznobite]

i think but not sure if my memory is correct - that it was a pointer or a lab  - a gunner anyway...

[GSPmad]

well i would say it was planned...

have seen duibh do similar - go and bark at window, dorain comes to look, duibh nicks bed. 

[Bilclarie]

Definatley planned course of action mine do it to each other all the time,if one can't lay where it wants to they will bark knowing at least one of the others will get up to see whats going on, then they nick there place on the sofa, not noticed them doing it to me though, saying that as soon as I get up theres always one of them willing to keep my chair warm for me.


Mo and the Gang

[Sarah Jane]

oh this is interesting...........i think that the dog did need the toilet then saw the chair empty and thought with a quick............oh the chair maybe i can hold the toilet

[widget]

Might not be planned... The dog might have just seen the opportunity and been pleased with the outcome...

My parents Cat (Tabitha) does this (dogs aren't allowed on furniture   ) - she asks to be put up to her food place (she is too old to jump) and when you get up she jumps into the space she vacated...

I think is one of two things
1) she an opportunist
2) asking to get up to the food is also her way of asking to get on the seat.

Another interesting thing - this time that Dottie the collie does...

She loves her football... we used to leave it in the garden for her - she often used to knock it into the pond..  none of us would notice.  So to tell us - she would sit by the cupboard where the ball lives.  When you go to the cupboard to get the ball out she would run out the back door and wait by the edge of the pond as she knows the ball isn't in there - just just wants to tell you where it is...

My Dad reckons Dottie can construct sentences  

Anyway - I guess she has learnt that to get the desired outcome she has to perform a series of actions... otherwise we ignore the ball in the pond  

Not sure this adds to the discussion tho 

[cjane]

"did the dog 'plan' this action and then actually put that plan into action and was the 'pleasure' the self satisfaction of the 'win' activated by memory?"

Past experience taught the dog that to whine at the door got his master to get up out of the chair, he fancied getting back on the chair so whined at the door.

Or, he wanted to go outside so whined at the door, saw his master get up and he thought 'now I have a choice, go out or get in the chair, I'm not really that desperate to go pee and the chair was comfy, so I'll get in the chair'.

He got pleasure from his behaviour being rewarded, ie getting on the comfy chair, not sure if the 'win' activated by memory would be rewarding.

CJ

[rooooooooby]

hi,

hmmm ... this is more free will vs determinism

there has been research to show brain activity prior to conscious choice on a number of tasks

dogs live in the moment mainly so i'd go with whined to go out and when situation changed chair was more valuable and decided he could hold it.

william does this and he's definately too dimwit to think up all that

claire x

[rooooooooby]

harry says

cause and effect ....


harry open gate and let bonnie in
bonnie eats harrys marmite toast

 

[GSPmad]

well sounds like he's got cause and effect sussed. 

did he do that deliberately? would have if it was me - disgusting stuff marmite. 

was thinking - did the dog go out first then come back in and get on the chair, or just get on the chair? 

[rooooooooby]

just get onto chair

[Gracie]

i think not planned, i dont think dogs can 'plan' like this?? (tho they hunt and surely there is planning in hunting??)

but nope think than got up as needed the loo, and then saw the oportunity to get in chair, either that or dog though master was giving up the chair for him 

[Sweetypye]

Question:

Is the dog a male or a female? 

[*Nat*]

Question:

Is the dog a male or a female? 

Well if it was planned then the dog must be female