cause and effect - conscious choice or not...

[Diesel73]

but what about from when she was being puppy trained? maybe she was punished then??

Don't have to go that far to get this reaction.
Dogs do know when you as master don't like something.
Was a test on tv, long time ago. A dog was properly trained, can't remember his age was 5-6 i think. The master and his dog left the livingroom. In secret someone else put a dogdropping on the carpet. On purpose they left the dog back in first. Than his master came in. Dog responded to it just as he would if it would been his doing that the dogsh.t was on the floor. He looked just as guilty, just as 'ashamed'. Yet he did not do it. It was not even his at all but some other dogs.... Figure that out  .

[kizkiznobite]

which just goes to show it the expected body language from the human - it association of the poo is there = bad body language - not for having done the poo in the first place - thats why rubbing nose in doent work - it doesnt stop the behaviour just teaches dog that a negative reaction is on the way

[Gracie]

hmmm was reading books today that made interesting points... can i heck as remeber which one like 
was about the past and how dogs dont remember the past only associate past actions when paired with a reward / punishment and am sure it said something about dogs dont do stuff because they did then in the past but beacuse the get reinforced.

that sounds abit gobble d gook sorry

[cjane]

I've read something similar Gracie.  They learn by associating good stuff or bad stuff with with their actions.  So, they have no concept of 'right' and 'wrong', only 'safe' and 'dangerous', and they learn what is safe and what is dangerous by associations.

So, I guess, poo on the floor associated with master getting annoyed, this is dangerous so better show appeasement.

What's the answer to the original question Kiz?

CJ

[SuzAndTheDiva]

so I am safe to assume at some point Honeys got in some sort of trouble be it a mild telling off (im assuming it more than that considering  how sensitive she is too raised voices  ) for messing in the house when she was younger - because she wont have learnt that reaction from me, I NEVER told her off for anything like that mainly cos apart from a couple accidents she been clean since I had her...........

[GSPmad]

ok...so if you are thinking that it was a deliberate act....

then presumably you would agree that a dog is aware of the future and does not just live in the present ?
 

yes but just because they can plan and predict consequences of an action doesn't mean they understand the concept of future.

[GSPmad]

- reward for a behaviour but...when falkor raids the fridge for example - is that solely a learnt behaviour due to success or is he aware because he also learnt hunger - that even though he been fed he might not be tomorrow in the tomorrow sense?

and what about bone burying...do they remember that yesterday the buried a bone, check it still there today but it for tomorrow?

but the fridge raiding - i would say is just i can get the food i will get what i can now as have learnt how, not might not get any tomorrow. because since he does get fed regularly and not left to go hungry and has been for years then if he had concept of future he would think - well i know they will feed me because they do. 

bone burying - don't want it all now, will hide it and remember where it is. certainly have memory. without memory couldn't learn. but again hiding it, knowing where is, and when hungry remembering and going back to get it doesn't mean when they bury it they think - i will put that there for tomorrow - still don't think they actually have concept of future as such.

and toys only on beach would again be a memory association - link toys and beach, but not convinced they would be thinking 'i am going there'.

[GSPmad]

but come 6pm if Gracie hasnt been fed she stands infront of the tv and generallly barks and pesters till we feed her, she knows it dinner time.

yep - but they have a body clock - hence waking up at same time if they used to getting up same time each day, if fed at same time get into routine of getting hungry at that time and expecting food. routines automatic without thinking - for us too.

[GSPmad]

I wonder them remembering the past, I posted somehwere about Honey having an accident in the house as she was poorly, no one had noticed yet when I came home she greeted me oddly, in the fact she was doing the sorry sorry mum sorry I been bad, I was confused until I went into my room (she greeted me in the garden) and saw what had happened. So she knew right- i know we say dogs dont so we cant punish them and I agree BUT I came straight outside to see her I didnt know until AFTER I saw her what shed done so nothing in MY body language to make her think she needed to be so appeasing.................

but because she is conditioned where to go, she knew it wasn't the 'right' place and could therefore be appeasing\ anxious because of that, as dogs do seem to like to keep doin everything the same and as they're used to and don't like it if things change or go wrong.

or yes, as gracie says.

[GSPmad]

- infact she will only go in the garden too if absolutely necessary prefering to wait for a walk.....

dorain is like that too and it drives me spare -- and he def not been punished for going in garden. but think with him it's partly surfaces - he OK in grassy type garden, but he doesn't like to go on concrete\ stone\ paving type - which can make life difficult.... (but that is one of his talents  )

[kerrie and stan]

stan doesnt like to go at all in the garden, he to will wait for a walk

[Diesel73]

bone burying - don't want it all now, will hide it and remember where it is. certainly have memory. without memory couldn't learn. but again hiding it, knowing where is, and when hungry remembering and going back to get it doesn't mean when they bury it they think - i will put that there for tomorrow - still don't think they actually have concept of future as such.

but again hiding it, knowing where is, and WHEN hungry remembering and.... Is 'when' not 'at some point', and is that not 'one day'? That is 'future' right? Just not in sence of time as we see it. But somehow it is 'future', not? Like 3 year old being promissed to go to an amuzement parc 'in the weekend'. They know it is coming and not already been, as 'in the weekend' means it is coming. But 3 year old does not know when it is 'weekend' yet. So it is future, but don't know when.

[widget]

- infact she will only go in the garden too if absolutely necessary prefering to wait for a walk.....

dorain is like that too and it drives me spare -- and he def not been punished for going in garden. but think with him it's partly surfaces - he OK in grassy type garden, but he doesn't like to go on concrete\ stone\ paving type - which can make life difficult.... (but that is one of his talents  )

I always think of that as something different...  Loki prefers to wait for a walk - I have assumed (rightly or wrongly) this is either because he wants to try to get us to take him for a walk cos we know he needs to go or because he doesn't need to mark his own territory as no other dogs come in our garden - so he prefer to save his wee for marks outside our property - where other dogs have been?

[GSPmad]

bone burying - don't want it all now, will hide it and remember where it is. certainly have memory. without memory couldn't learn. but again hiding it, knowing where is, and when hungry remembering and going back to get it doesn't mean when they bury it they think - i will put that there for tomorrow - still don't think they actually have concept of future as such.

but again hiding it, knowing where is, and WHEN hungry remembering and.... Is 'when' not 'at some point', and is that not 'one day'? That is 'future' right

it is 'future' if at the time they buried it they thought 'i will go back for that tomorrow when i am hungry'. but if at time they bury it they just think 'i have put it there' then tomorrow when hungry remember 'i put that there' it is just memory not concept of future.

hope that made sense - i am tired and this is not time of night for complicated concepts. 

[kizkiznobite]

the scenario with the dog chair and door though ...

if we accept that the dog planned it then the dog had to have a 'future' concept of some kind - even if it was just the immediate next few minutes of 'future' ..his 'future' of being able to work out how to get in the chair in the 'future' - if you with me

your right 4am in morning is not the time for complicated concepts