Bad relationship

[rooooooooby]

ok ok ... how about "what she finally caved in and worked for after holding out against all odds"

[Dree]

I have one problem relying on something so highly for walks and to get certain behaviours.........what if your suddenly out find yourself in a 'situation' and dont have the reward - what then? Thats a problem for me - personally for me I want my dog to do something because I myself am the reward - my praise - because it thats a good enough reward its something i ALWAYS have with me...........am sure Bev has other reasons why relying on something like that all the time isnt good - but for me thats the big reason. That and i own a dog who doesnt have anything she likes enough to use as such a reward.........

If you are training for a certain behaviour, you have to have a reward in place.  It's that simple.  And if you are training a dog against certain situations that you cannot control, you make pretty damn sure that you don't find yourself in a "situation".  But....if you do, you *must* have the reward in place.  It's all very well saying I want my dog to do this and that because it loves me.  Wouldn't we all?!  But it's not that simple.  Different dogs require different rewards.  When Nell was young, I never, ever went out where I would meet dogs.  When I had the down in place, I could go out where there were dogs.....and I had a reward with me for her.  If I go out to someone with a problem dog, should I tell them that all their dog needs is a pat on the head?  I wish!!!  If you have a dog that requires a ball as a reward, you always carry a ball....if it needs garlic sausage, that's what you carry.  We are talking about training a dog here.  Once the sought behaviour is in place, then the reward can be scaled down as and when.  For example, Nell needed certain rewards so that she wouldn't take off and fly at dogs or humans whenever she felt the need.  I don't carry them now.  Lana needed certain rewards for a decent recall....I don't carry them now.  BUT....I nearly always have treats in my pocket.  My dogs may love me, but I'm pretty sure they love treats just as much. 

As far as a reward for your dog is concerned.  I would be surprised if you didn't find something that she likes.  It can be something really strange.  For example, one person I know couldn't get her dog to do h/w with any conviction.  All he wanted to do was go and pee on the nearest post....or whatever.  Chuckits - not interested....food - nah....tuggy....nope.  So....we decided to do a couple of steps of h/w, click, and let him go sniff and lift his leg.  That dog is now working 'C' and is a cracker. 

[kizkiznobite]

there is a huge difference between using a reward to cue in a behaviour and carrying on with a reward once behaviour is fluent.... once a behaviour is fluent and reliable without hesitation then social appraisal should be enough in MHO with a bingo reward when required...don't do obsessions...don't do dogs that only will do for a reward for life....

[Dree]

Hi,

Suz - praise suits you because thats the highest thing that Honey works for   You can (and I  have) move dogs on from using treats to praise without losing R & F in cues as a next step.

Dree - I havent seen him but I have talked through this at great length and in great detail with CJ. 

He is post 16 weeks so learning is operant so he'll be choosing to offer the behaviour (yay!) or do what he thinks is best (an extinction burst).  Re-modification is the term generally used by behaviourists (and others) to refer to the unlearning of "things you dont want" and the re-learning of the "things you do want".

Intervention in this case would be the re-mod and getting CJ managing him all the time and this is extra challenging in her case due to specific details of her situation.

Claire x

Mmmm, I'm a dog trainer.  I don't allow dogs to make a choice when the chances are it will choose what has been the most rewarding behaviour in the past.  (Picking a fight can be very self rewarding, and places the owner in the position of being the wally holding the lead.)  While "re-modification" is in place, the owner is *not* in control of the dog, and the longer that continues, the longer the dog thinks that the owner *is* the wally, and does not help the relationship change for the better.  It is very easy for a dog to "re-learn" what is wanted, and learn what you do want based on a reward suitable for that dog.  (Although I have to say, how does a dog "re-learn" what is wanted, when, in fact, it would seem that the dog has never learnt the proper behaviour in the first place?  How does a dog "re-learn" a behaviour it never knew?)  We can all talk "behaviourist" jargon, or we can talk about training dogs....it's all the same thing.  But....what we want, and what the owner wants, is a well trained dog that they can take out quite happily, and with confidence.  Imho, this won't happen while the dog is allowed to make choices for itself.  If I went out to a problem dog, and it was choosing to attack other dogs, do I allow it to make the choice to either attack a dog or stay with the owner?  No, I don't.  I don't allow the first behaviour (in whatever way will suit that dog and owner) and I put in place training so that the owner can have a well trained dog.

I obviously am not privy to CJ's situation, and unless you (and CJ, obviously) are prepared to share, then others like myself cannot give the best advice that we could.

[Dree]

there is a huge difference between using a reward to cue in a behaviour and carrying on with a reward once behaviour is fluent.... once a behaviour is fluent and reliable without hesitation then social appraisal should be enough in MHO with a bingo reward when required...don't do obsessions...don't do dogs that only will do for a reward for life....

We agree.  Below is what I wrote in my post.

"Once the sought behaviour is in place, then the reward can be scaled down as and when.  For example, Nell needed certain rewards so that she wouldn't take off and fly at dogs or humans whenever she felt the need.  I don't carry them now.  Lana needed certain rewards for a decent recall....I don't carry them now."

[kizkiznobite]

yep...sure we do... but we both know that what happens is that the owner gets stuck in the cycle of what works now...and they dont move on to diminishing rewards....the dog then moves it on and the cycle of presumed 'disobeying' or the dog is 'thick' or the dog wont do without the ball etc etc commences....the other thing is the problem of accepting the different stages of each behaviour....many folk just carry on rewarding for all and each...becuase rewards are there and in place...so for example...cubert at 6 months no longer gets rewards for basic behaviours...they are cued...he knows them...but a recall off greeting a child is weaker than off greeting another dog...so for that he still gets a reward 1 time out of 3...it is in this sort of area that folk struggle...the concept goes haywire and over rewarding starts to be the norm...i wont carry a clicker and treats with me all the time...i expect my dogs to work for my appraisal...eventually...the best place to be is with me...the best thing in there world is me...we have to protect them from themselves at times 

[Dree]

A martini down is very useful for a number of reasons but did you ever get her properly socialised with other dogs or was she always just kept seperated using this and then once she was under your management she put her trust in you and lost the fear aggression?

Claire x

I wanted to answer this separately.  A "martini" down??    The instant down was taught, because a dog can't attack (run) and lie down at the same time.  The fear aggression was in the breeding.    Nell is also touch aversive, and detests both dogs and humans touching her....apart from her "pack".  She doesn't like other dogs or people, but in old age she has mellowed considerably.....but only in the last year or so.  So, all her life, I have managed the situation, and not allowed dogs or people to touch her.  It has not been difficult to manage.  She is a super little girl.

[Dree]

yep...sure we do... but we both know that what happens is that the owner gets stuck in the cycle of what works now...and they dont move on to diminishing rewards....the dog then moves it on and the cycle of presumed 'disobeying' or the dog is 'thick' or the dog wont do without the ball etc etc commences....the other thing is the problem of accepting the different stages of each behaviour....many folk just carry on rewarding for all and each...becuase rewards are there and in place...so for example...cubert at 6 months no longer gets rewards for basic behaviours...they are cued...he knows them...but a recall off greeting a child is weaker than off greeting another dog...so for that he still gets a reward 1 time out of 3...it is in this sort of area that folk struggle...the concept goes haywire and over rewarding starts to be the norm...i wont carry a clicker and treats with me all the time...i expect my dogs to work for my appraisal...eventually...the best place to be is with me...the best thing in there world is me...we have to protect them from themselves at times 

 

Again, we agree.     See my comments below from a prevous post.

"When you're training the recall, be sure to sometimes chuckit once.....then maybe four times for the next one....then twice for the next....then seven for the next.  He should never know how high the reward is going to be.  Then you can introduce a lesser reward if the recall should ever be half-hearted....just give him a treat, or a pat on the head.  He has to know that the reward can not only be given....it can also be withheld.  **That** is when you and he start to have a relationship, because that's when you will be calling the shots, and he will be asking you to please give him his reward.  (This is where most relationships fall apart, because most owners never, ever withold the reward, because they're scared of the dog's reaction.)"

[kizkiznobite]

i read and absorbed posts hun...my comments were directed mainly at the others 

i rarely do quotes...sorry

[Dree]

i read and absorbed posts hun...my comments were directed mainly at the others 

i rarely do quotes...sorry

Apologies.  When you said:- "yep...sure we do... but we both know that what happens is..." I presumed you were answering my post, since the post stated "we".  My misinterpretation.

[Dree]

i have the same problem - dodger doesn't bother with me when other dogs around and i tried everything to get his attention (silly voices, treats, toys, being really excitable) until i found that i had his complete attention when i brought his ball on a string out with me. Now the only problem is i can't walk him without it Don't get me wrong by himself he's an angel no need for the ball then but i would just like to be able to control him in the same way i can when there are no dogs arund to when there are. i'm sure there will be plently of people on here who can offer you some advise like kerry said she had the same problem with Beau

Have you ever tried just standing still....doing absolutely nothing?  You need to be at home, with the dog in the garden just sniffing around.  When he actually comes to you, you go ballistic with his reward.  It works, believe me.    But you have to be prepared for the long haul.  I once stood outside for an hour before my dog came up to me.  But once that "ice" was broken, the next time took two minutes, the next time 30 seconds, and after that she didn't want to leave.    And, of course, once you have the behaviour, you can phase down/out the huge reward.  But it does take a bit of patience. 

[rooooooooby]

hi,

I may be just a "mere owner" and have no desire to train other peoples dogs for a living because I dont have time for work - but I have done some absolutely amazing things with my dogs and my fosters - I am very proud of it.   

Dree - Why did you never go beyond management and socialise her properly with people and dogs?  I find it very hard to buy that it was all her breeding and that a "dog trainer" couldnt achieve this? 

Kiz is the best behaviourist and trainer in the country and probably the whole world IMO.

claire.

[.dodger.]

i have the same problem - dodger doesn't bother with me when other dogs around and i tried everything to get his attention (silly voices, treats, toys, being really excitable) until i found that i had his complete attention when i brought his ball on a string out with me. Now the only problem is i can't walk him without it Don't get me wrong by himself he's an angel no need for the ball then but i would just like to be able to control him in the same way i can when there are no dogs arund to when there are. i'm sure there will be plently of people on here who can offer you some advise like kerry said she had the same problem with Beau

Have you ever tried just standing still....doing absolutely nothing?  You need to be at home, with the dog in the garden just sniffing around.  When he actually comes to you, you go ballistic with his reward.  It works, believe me.    But you have to be prepared for the long haul.  I once stood outside for an hour before my dog came up to me.  But once that "ice" was broken, the next time took two minutes, the next time 30 seconds, and after that she didn't want to leave.    And, of course, once you have the behaviour, you can phase down/out the huge reward.  But it does take a bit of patience. 

yes but it doesn't work at all when dogs are around.

[rooooooooby]

Hi,

if you got the behaviour really reliable and fluent with a cue that he hasnt broken and progress up the criteria you would get a cue that you could use to manage him (like Dree was doing with her dog in the down).  at the moment to get him working for you - you need to get away from the situation far enough to get his attention and work from there   Criteria is just too high.

Claire x

[.dodger.]

i don't understand how it do it though.
he does everything in the house, the garden, the street, the path to the park, at the park, outside some shops, next to a busy road. So how do i teach him to do something that he already does at each criteria?? I go back to criteria one and he does it perfectly then i go to the next and again perfect and so forth until we see dogs out then it's like a switch goes off and i'm no longer there to him. (this is without a ball) We had this ages and ages ago (theres a big long post all about his problems) and bev said that he see's the other dogs as a higher resource than me so i need to get his focus on to me. This then prompting the tons of posts about how i can get him to do that because i had tried everything and nothing was working.

Eventually he can now be off lead around other dogs without me having to worry about him running up to dogs because he is competely focused on me thanks to the ball. I could live quite happily with the way he is now because i have control when there are no dogs without the ball and i also have control when there are dogs and i have the ball. The problem is when i don' have the ball. Mudgie can agree that i am an absolute mess because we go back to the other dodger who doesn't listen to me and runs up to other dogs which nornmally ends in me dragging him off or away from the other dog.