Bad relationship

[Dree]

a little off topic but I think Nell sounds gorgeous and wish her a happy retirement   i wasnt belittling what you had done already (which is alot - working collies are my "thing" so i know they dont come out the womb like on 1man and his dog ).  I think we're meaning different things by "socialised" - correct me please if i'm wrong here but I have the idea that Nell can "be around other dogs" using the down - when i say socialised i mean running / playing / interacting at whatever level without being under such close management.

oh and to prove i'm not some clever invincible lady - a dog picked a fight with my William tonight in the park.  Bonnie nicked off with its ball after i sent her to greet not noticing it had dropped one near its feet and I think he just got in the way when it was already miffed !  No harm done but boxer owners were a bit ruffled !

CJ - Dogs in bedroom is a personal thing - I personally wouldnt let a dog in my room in this situation, obviously you can play - just on your terms

Claire x

Sorry, Nell has *never* been in a down with other dogs around her.  I wouldn't place her in such a stressful situation.  (Apart from the 10 minute out of sight stay required at shows.  Which is quite different, because all the others are in a down too!  )  No, she cannot play/run with other dogs.  She couldn't cope with that.  We have three other dogs here that she plays with.  She does not like strange dogs, and doesn't want to interact with them.  We go on walks, all four, and that is enough for her.  Thank-you for wishing her a happy retirement.  She is my angel, and I adore her. 

Naughty Bonnie! 

[Kerry_and_Beau]

wow i'm getting confused in this now i think we have 3 different dogs being discussed 

anyway CJ the advice you got about him sleeping in your room ect that makes me nervous, now don't get me wrong as izzie knows beau loves our bed and couch and is allowed, but if he isn't paying attention to you as a manager then maybe giving him even more freedom to do what he choses may not be the best idea....

wags what would yours do if you gave more freedom, isn't it oban that takes a mile when given an inch?

maybe i'm wrong, just seems a little crazy that logic 

playing and building a bond is great and a defo but you have to have your rules and be able to control this surely 

[wags]

anyway CJ the advice you got about him sleeping in your room ect

wags what would yours do if you gave more freedom, isn't it oban that takes a mile when given an inch?

give oban half a milimeter then hes took more than a mile
hes an out and out git without a doupt

but training with Oban is a bit of a revelation really - hes very much "yep right got it NEXT"
one thing i will say about him is hes no first dog - if he had been my first dog let alone my first border collie i think i would have been driven over the edge
Oban has never really had a puppy phase hes always been an adult dog in a puppy body - i remember at 16 weeks he bollocked an adult lab that had approached him very rudelly on the beach and i stood there thinking oh jesus what the hell have i got here.

what would mine do ?
uhm in what way
the three i have now have all to be managed in one way or another - Flyte and Brock are the easy two and matthew has them 

Cleo isnt reliable with other dogs - when i first got her she was out and out aggressive and would seriouslly fly off the handle - i dont trust her entirelly with other dogs but as shes got older shes chilled out loads more - we have a much greater understanding of each other and we work together quite well now

Meg is terrified of people - and im  to say that i really dont try and impove the situation with her either - i simply hate doing any sort of training with Meg she drives me insane - her enthusiasm and madness makes me want bang my head against something very hard - i know how to work within megs comfort zones and for my own well being i dont tend to go outside them

Oban give a tiny bit and he will take a mile - hes a p**s taker and if he thinks he can get away with it he will give it a damm good go - i wouldnt give him anything because he would seriouslly take it to far 

uhm so yeh there you go not a perfect bunch but im quite happy with the way things go - its easy enough for me and it works so i dont really expect any more really

so i suppose if i gave Oban more freedom - hed chase and grip anything that moved, potentially he could be quite dog aggressive because hes so pushy and in your face
Meg would prob just cower in a corner
Cleo mmmmmmm thats not really something id like to think about to be honest because 6 years ago she was like a loaded gun where as now shes just a girl that dont take any crap 

As for staying in your room - i think thats very much personal choice
Cleo wouldnt - very much i am a farm dog and i need to sleep under a tractor type attitude - she tends to sleep on the tiles on the kitchen floor - but i tend to shut her in a crate because she wakes up stiff from sleeping on the hard floor 
Meg tends to annoy me because she doesnt settle for ages - so there is a crate in my room - for if shes doing my head in i can shove her in it 
Oban sleeps on the floor beside my bed 

[Mudgie]

okay - here is my tuppence worth which covers all 101 dogs being discussed  

Now you may remember I had a pooch who had been in a crate most of her 6 years, her name is Elsa    love you Elsa    when I got her she was a mess, she didnt do socialising, she didnt do sharing, she didnt do playing, she didn't do other dogs, she didn't do toys, she didnt do walks, she didnt do men  and she most certainly didnt do motorbikes or screaming children - she did fear, cowering, crying, stress, distrust, horror and excelling in chasing squirrels, I am no "qualified" dog trainer but for those who dont know, for the newbies on the board I "remodified" it all - I taught her how to be a dog... with treats no, with rewards no, with balls no..... (well not the bouncy variety)  I used love, patience (although I admit i wasnt good at that) and understanding but most of all consistency.  I took loads of advice off this board, added some of my own, made up a little but she became a star and I am so bloody proud of her    So I do believe that nothing is impossible nothing....  and yes you can change their character and personality because most of it is responses/triggers/reinforced behaviours that can be desensitised  

Yes I am a mere owner but a damn bloody good one at that and better than some of the so called "qualified" trainers .... and my Nacho biggest reward is Mudgie.  And every dog I have ever had has either slept in the room with me or in my bed - whatever they choose    Pack together

[SuzAndTheDiva]

got totally lost in the mire here - but actually isnt much honeys that impressed with seriously, food doesnt do it, and what she possibly would work for she cant have - toys, no go either - my praise works but i have to do the silly happy praise, to be honest we muddle along - shes a good girl, shes as good as I can get with the training I can manage - is all i can say on the subject you all confused me thoroughly to be honest!

[*Lassie*]

This thread is getting as hard as an Agnatha Christie to follow,  interesting but confusing.
Dree - martini cue = anytime anyplace anywhere

[Dree]

This thread is getting as hard as an Agnatha Christie to follow,  interesting but confusing.
Dree - martini cue = anytime anyplace anywhere

Oh, I'm glad I'm not the only one who's confused!    Yes, I worked out the Martini bit. 

Apologies for bringing my own dog, Nell, into the discussion.  I was only using her as an example of where the instant down (or the Martini  ) could be used.  Dogs running off to play with other dogs....instant down in place, go and put dog on lead and reward.  The behaviour of running off becomes extinct because every time it runs off (to attack, to play, whatever) it is put in a down.  The "running off" behaviour simply disappears, because there is no fun at the end of it.  The fun becomes the down, and the reward for the down....which is eventually phased out as well. 

[Izzie]

Apologies for bringing my own dog, Nell, into the discussion.  I was only using her as an example of where the instant down (or the Martini  ) could be used.  Dogs running off to play with other dogs....instant down in place, go and put dog on lead and reward.  The behaviour of running off becomes extinct because every time it runs off (to attack, to play, whatever) it is put in a down.  The "running off" behaviour simply disappears, because there is no fun at the end of it.  The fun becomes the down, and the reward for the down....which is eventually phased out as well. 

Hang on...

So you're telling Cjane to put her dog into a down everytime the dog runs off and then put them on a lead- correct?
but shouldnt you reward the down and not put the lead on?
why put them on a lead at all? -thats only going to create an extintion of the down cue and open even more problems- is it not?

Why not get a 100% reliable recall? or a reliable stop cue?  or even a go greet- greet nice cue in place instead of running the risk of extinctions occuring and the dog working to avoid.

[Mudgie]

The only phrase that keeps coming into my head over and over again is

"the best place to be"

http://www.dogclub.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3153.0.html

Once you achieve this then you work on the other stuff

[cjane]

Kerry - I agree that giving him too much freedom in the house would not be a good thing in the long run, but the 'bonding effort' was supposed to be intense but short-term.

Mudgie - sounds like you did a terrific job with Elsa, and I take great encouragement from what you achieved.

Izzie - I think Dree's instant down is meant for emergency situations. If the situation can be avoided by just recalling him, or the other dog is known not to be a problem, or if it was a false alarm, then putting on lead may not be necessary.  The idea (I think) is to get him to stop in his tracks and pay attention to you, difficult for a dog in flight but obviously achievable.

Dree - I've started practicing an instant down, just on the long line or lead and when I have his attention.  Also tried a couple running/playing in the field ie on the move.  He's a bit slow to react but we'll work on it.

CJ

PS 'best place to be ...' I've lost count of the number of times I've read this thread starting when I first joined the forum.  The theory is totally understandable, achieving it in practice is the problem.

[Mudgie]

when bev came to visit nooch - she found it difficult to get him "away" because his "best place to be" involved invisible velcro to leg 

I am looking forward to getting knowledge to contribute better on these threads - bishop barton starts tonight 

[Izzie]

Izzie - I think Dree's instant down is meant for emergency situations. If the situation can be avoided by just recalling him, or the other dog is known not to be a problem, or if it was a false alarm, then putting on lead may not be necessary.  The idea (I think) is to get him to stop in his tracks and pay attention to you, difficult for a dog in flight but obviously achievable.

Thats what the stop cue is for.....

[cjane]

Well it probably is a stop cue, but stop by lying down.  I guess use whatever works with your dog.  Doing down seems more natural for a Border Collie to do.

Just as an aside, on the Martin Clunes program about dogs, when he was with the guy with the sheepdogs, one of his commands for the dog was 'lie down' and he used it between each command as in 'go left' - 'lie down' - 'walk on' - 'lie down' - 'go right' - 'lie down' etc.  Dog responded beautifully, it was great to watch.

CJ
PS I know it's not go left and right but come by and away to me but can never remember which is which.

[Izzie]

Well it probably is a stop cue, but stop by lying down.  I guess use whatever works with your dog.  Doing down seems more natural for a Border Collie to do.

Just as an aside, on the Martin Clunes program about dogs, when he was with the guy with the sheepdogs, one of his commands for the dog was 'lie down' and he used it between each command as in 'go left' - 'lie down' - 'walk on' - 'lie down' - 'go right' - 'lie down' etc.  Dog responded beautifully, it was great to watch.

CJ
PS I know it's not go left and right but come by and away to me but can never remember which is which.

But what I am trying to point out to you is that by putting him into a down and then putting the lead on- you are going get an extinction and you wont just one extinction, you will set yourself up for a number of extinctions and then what?

Training takes time, if you arent 100% sure on the best place to be thread- ask, noone is going to think any less of you for asking a question.

[wags]

The only phrase that keeps coming into my head over and over again is

"the best place to be"

http://www.dogclub.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3153.0.html

Once you achieve this then you work on the other stuff

sweetheart i think you will find the best place to be is in the pub