Fighting each other on the walk

[scoobydoo]

 
We have two eight year old dogs (brothers) their Mum (now deceased) came to us from a rescue centre and despite the vet telling us she was having a fantom pregnancy she gave birth to 8 puppies - two still born the rest apart from Scamp & Sooty who we kept were re-homed.  Scamp & Sooty were introduced to people, children and other dogs when young and used to be walked together, but then an incident in the local park some years ago left them both terrified of other dogs.  Unwittingly I think we nurtured that fear.  To get to the point although Hubby and I walk them together (one behind the other) and they are fine together off lead and in the house as soon as we try and walk them next to each other they go for each other big time.  They are both nervous of other dogs and I think that feeds their aggression Scamp will acutually run off if off lead and he sees another dog in the distance.  We are trying various techniques we follow Cesar Millan's calm assertivness methods and can see an improvement in them individually but still not on the walk.  I want to walk them either side of me - anyone else out there had similar problems?

[Foxisle_crazy]

I haven't got time to find all the threads you should read but have a snoop around here, especially in the stickies for starters! 

I just wanted to quickly add, please drop the cesar milan stuff now, i've just gone through a really upsetting rehome with one of my customers who had 2 fighting cocker brothers.  She was following his methods and ended up with a really bad situation ending up in one of them being rehomed. 

You're in the right place now for help 

[Izzie]

 What breed are they?

Neutured or entire?

How old where they when they were attacked- more info on that too please

[farrokh]

We have two eight year old dogs (brothers) their Mum (now deceased) came to us from a rescue centre and despite the vet telling us she was having a fantom pregnancy she gave birth to 8 puppies - two still born the rest apart from Scamp & Sooty who we kept were re-homed.  Scamp & Sooty were introduced to people, children and other dogs when young and used to be walked together, but then an incident in the local park some years ago left them both terrified of other dogs.  Unwittingly I think we nurtured that fear.  To get to the point although Hubby and I walk them together (one behind the other) and they are fine together off lead and in the house as soon as we try and walk them next to each other they go for each other big time.  They are both nervous of other dogs and I think that feeds their aggression Scamp will acutually run off if off lead and he sees another dog in the distance.  We are trying various techniques we follow Cesar Millan's calm assertivness methods and can see an improvement in them individually but still not on the walk.  I want to walk them either side of me - anyone else out there had similar problems?

please don't copy cesar millan he teaches by fear sorry cant help but good luck from farrokh a much loved dobermann

[scoobydoo]

In reply to Izzie,  the Mother was a collie/German shepherd cross their father unknown as Mother pregnant when we had her and this was not picked up by either the rescue centre or the vet! They both have a look of terrier about them but both also have the markings of both collie and GS.  They are medium sized.  Neither neutured.  They were about a year old when they were in the park both on flexi leads with just myself, they were not attacked as such just a big dog came bounding over off lead but got tangled up in theirs.. I ended up with my hand badly cut trying to grab one lead.. the owner of the dog just carried on walking way ahead absolutely oblivious to the turmoil.  It was early morning in the winter as well so it was only half light, the dog just appeared from nowhere and gave me a fright too.  After that they used to shake when taking them out for a walk and refused to go outside the front door, I think we thought it would be best if they were walked seperately for a while to get them used to going out again but years later we are no further forward.  I will keep an open mind on Cesar techniques we have used them for some things and it has worked.  We did take all three of them to a dog training class some years ago supposedly run by an ex police dog handler - never again, we soon gave that up after seeing his methods they seemed very brutal and not what we wanted for our dogs. Please keep the suggestions coming in and I will keep you posted.. thanks

[tri 'n snatch it bonnie girl]

hello & welcome

Ouch - you learned the hard way why flexi leads are so dangerous and such a menace.  I hope that you have bought them some proper leads.

You'll bugger up your dogs for good using CM thats for sure especially as you say you've not got the skill/knowledge to sort this "for years".  It is good solid advice to give him a very wide berth

Have you stopped using crappy flexi leads ?

Have PM'd you details of the behaviourist I work with for my own and rescued dogs.  We've worked through 3 fairly complex cases of aggression towards other dogs now which have all been successful


Claire.

[scoobydoo]

Thank you for your information so far.  Is there anyone out there who does like what CM teaches? (perhaps this should be a seperate topic).  I try and keep an open mind on most things but a lot of what he does and says seems to make sense to me, I have not seen any evidence to suggest his methods are cruel but then it is his show!  Back to the topic I suppose looking back the problem with the boys was not really a big problem until Sally died, because until then Hubby used to walk Sally and Sooty  together and I would walk with Scamp so we never really used to try and walk Sooty and Scamp side by side much anyway before, but now it would be useful for just one of us to walk both dogs sometimes.  We are not entirely without training abilities, when Sally came to us she had been mistreated in the past and was rather aggressive (being pregnant probably did not help) plus she was not used to walking on a lead and used to pull after cars etc., through patience and perseverance we eventually overcame these problems having had no really useful help from the two dog trainers we tried, Sally grew into a loving, gentle dog who eventually stopped car chasing.  But I would still welcome any suggestions especially if others have had similar problems.   

[justpetdogs]

Unfortunately, there are lots of people out there who do like CMs methods...most of them know very little about dog behaviour and training though!

It sounds like your dogs are scared and anxious on walks and are redirecting that into aggressive behaviour towards each other.  However, you do need someone knowledgable and experienced to assess what's going on by meeting your dogs (not by seeing your dogs have a go at each other though).

Marion

[scoobydoo]

Thanks Marion, I totally agree with your comments regarding Sooty & Scamp redirecting their nervousness towards each other on the walk.  What I want now is to able to introduce them (seperately I think at first) to another dog who is calm and will teach them that there is nothing to be afraid of, but it is hard to come by these people/dogs, a lot of people around where i live seem to be 'ruled by their dogs' as you see them being pulled around the park etc.  What I find really annoying is when someone has their dog off lead and it is bounding towards us, our dogs are obviously afraid but the owner just shouts 'its ok he only wants to play'!  and starts to walk in the opposite direction..  We had thought of taking them to socialising classes or something like that but I have not seen anything advertised.  So.. here is my next request... We live near Cannock in Staffordshire, anyone know of any socialising groups  etc.,  It would have to be evenings or week ends.  On a positive note, we are still walking them first thing every morning, Hubby goes ahead of me and then they get to play off lead in local woods, when we put them back on the lead, although we do not let them get too near each other yet they do seem to be calming down a bit more, so perhaps we need to keep this routine up - as they say Rome wasn't built in a day.  I had two rescue dogs in the past (not at the same time) who both lived long and happy lives, they both had various issues when we had them but we worked through it and they became well behaved dogs.  This is the first time I have had to work with more than one dog at the same time.  Will keep you posted...

[Sweetypye]

As soon as you put more than one dog on a lead you create a "race" and this effect is exacerbated with siblings.

If you have walked them separately for all these years and now want to walk them together it may take some considerable time.

Have you used a double ended lead so that one is on your left and the other is on the right?

[justpetdogs]

It sounds like you're handling the situation pretty well at the moment, especially if you're seeing some improvement.  A trick with the out-of-control off-lead dogs is to shout that yours are "probably still infectious"!  That usually makes the owner shift pretty quickly although you might get some verbal abuse...but who cares?

I think Dolores Palmer is fairly near to you.  Look here:

http://www.apdt.co.uk/trainers_area.asp?area=Staffordshire

Or there may be someone in an adjoining county...sorry, I don't know the geography of that area too well.

Marion

[farrokh]

Thank you for your information so far.  Is there anyone out there who does like what CM teaches? (perhaps this should be a seperate topic).  I try and keep an open mind on most things but a lot of what he does and says seems to make sense to me, I have not seen any evidence to suggest his methods are cruel but then it is his show!  Back to the topic I suppose looking back the problem with the boys was not really a big problem until Sally died, because until then Hubby used to walk Sally and Sooty  together and I would walk with Scamp so we never really used to try and walk Sooty and Scamp side by side much anyway before, but now it would be useful for just one of us to walk both dogs sometimes.  We are not entirely without training abilities, when Sally came to us she had been mistreated in the past and was rather aggressive (being pregnant probably did not help) plus she was not used to walking on a lead and used to pull after cars etc., through patience and perseverance we eventually overcame these problems having had no really useful help from the two dog trainers we tried, Sally grew into a loving, gentle dog who eventually stopped car chasing.  But I would still welcome any suggestions especially if others have had similar problems.   
[/quote  cm methods are cruel choke chains with prongs on the in side heavy back packs i saw him on one show yank a choke chain six if not more times and he roller blades so the poor dog has to keep running every dog that i have taken for a walk likes to stop and sniff running a dog on a road must be very hard oh the dogs joints i just hope he never sets foot in England and what i would like to know is what he does to the poor dogs off camera

[Sweetypye]

In my opinion there is nothing wrong in roller blading, biking, your dog etc, it is no different than running huskies in a rig, or skijoring!  And that is done on hard ground as is can Cani Cross in certain conditions; should we ban these activities? 

There are times for dogs to stop and sniff and times when they are being exercised.

Certainly if you are running or walking your dogs for fitness they should not be stopping and starting!

Mine are run next to the bike 2/3 times a week, they do not sniff then.

Mine swim at least once a week, they do not sniff then.

When they are competing, they do not sniff.

When they are training they do not sniff.

When we are just out for an amble, country walk etc they can stop and sniff when of course they have been given permission.

Trotting on hard roads is not a problem provided a) you have a suitable dog and b) you increase duration gradually and c) yout tailor it to the weather etc.

there are endurance tests which involve the dog trotting 13 miles next to a bike and still be fit to carry out obedience at the end of it (both my dogs have passed this, it is called the Ausdauerprufung, and it is one of the de rigeur tests on breeding stock on the Continent for GSD!

[farrokh]

In my opinion there is nothing wrong in roller blading, biking, your dog etc, it is no different than running huskies in a rig, or skijoring!  And that is done on hard ground as is can Cani Cross in certain conditions; should we ban these activities? 

There are times for dogs to stop and sniff and times when they are being exercised.

Certainly if you are running or walking your dogs for fitness they should not be stopping and starting!

Mine are run next to the bike 2/3 times a week, they do not sniff then.

Mine swim at least once a week, they do not sniff then.

When they are competing, they do not sniff.

When they are training they do not sniff.

When we are just out for an amble, country walk etc they can stop and sniff when of course they have been given permission.

Trotting on hard roads is not a problem provided a) you have a suitable dog and b) you increase duration gradually and c) yout tailor it to the weather etc.

there are endurance tests which involve the dog trotting 13 miles next to a bike and still be fit to carry out obedience at the end of it (both my dogs have passed this, it is called the Ausdauerprufung, and it is one of the de rigeur tests on breeding stock on the Continent for GSD!

when the dog wants to pee does ask you first roads are for cars etc what about meeting other dogs to say hi dogs are pack animals not robots and how do you watch your dogs when rideing a bike when i am on my bike i watch for cars etc wheni walk my dog i keep my eyes on him

[Sweetypye]

When my dog wants to pee he does in fact ask first, but my dogs are only allowed to pee on the lead when I give them permission.

If there is one thing I cannot stand it is dogs that cock their legs on every vertical post.

I am confused as to why you assume my dogs do not meet other dogs, they do!  However they interact with them with MY permission; as you rightly said, they are pack animals, I am the pack manager, so I say what they can do, where, when and how.  Just a responsible pack leader should!

If you said you went swimming every day and jogging every day I would not assume that you do not ALSO do other things!

I am aghast that you have jumped to the conclusion that I might bike my dogs on the road.

What an irresponsible idea!

Utter inexcusable.

People should NEVER exercise their dogs in the road whether on a bike, roller blades, feet, scooter etc!

I run my dogs on a disused air strip and other suitable PROWs!