Help! he's driving me mad!!

[crazyfrog339]

My boy has just decided to stop responding to anything said to him and its driving me mad!!  It started a couple of weeks ago, we were in the garden and i called him to me, he turned looked at me and continued with what he was doing.  I ignored him and went inside - the others cast him a dissaproving glance and followed me in.  i made a huge fuss of them as loudly as i could expecting him to com to see what was going on but he just continued playing with his toy.  after about 10 mins he came in all happy as if he'd done as he was asked!  The next time it happened i sent hubby out to remove the toy, (he didnt speak to him, just calmly took the toy and came back inside)  again we fussed the others and expected him to come in but again he just stayed out untill he was ready! This is what happens everytime he is let out now!
He's also stopped responding to any other command either, you give him a command and he just looks at you as if he hasnt a clue what you are talking about and yet he was perfect on all commands before this hiccup but now he wont even walk to heel, he just drags everyone around!! Someoine said its a teenage phase that will pass but when?  how long will it take? can i speed up the process? and how do i keep my sanity whilst he is going through his phase?

[piglet]

yep - i'd agree with 'teenage' phase - sounds like ur doing the right things mainly although i might try letting him out on a long line so you have some control over when he comes back in - not just when he is ready.

ur boss not naughty teenage doggie

Claire x

[baby b]

Sounds like a teenage stage to me too. Brogan is going through a similar thing at the moment. Try not to lose patience with him. He's pushing you to see how much he can get away with. Take his training right back to basics. Like he was a pup that you were training for the first time, be consistent and you will get through it. I do sympathise with you. I know how frustrating it is.

[Jayne, Baby Erin, Murphy and Spud]

Wey hey, I'm not the only one then!!

Murphy is 6 months old on Monday and he seems to have lost the ability to hear my voice in the garden.  Within days of getting him (9 weeks old) he was top dog on the recall, but now, b***er all!!! He'll do anything else I tell him to do but 'Murphy here' !!  You're not on yer own and it drives me mad 'cos I keep wondering where I've gone wrong 

[kizkiznobite]

take the training back to criteria one - try not to use much voice - you will burn out the cues, fuss/reward him everytime he responds - have set training session times with clear cut signals of 'we are in a training session' if the training session is not being attended to - then leave it and resume later with no rewards being given.
has he started to cock his leg to pee?

[charityuk]

crazyfrog339
!! It started a couple of weeks ago, we were in the garden and i called him to me, he turned looked at me and continued with what he was doing.
|
he just continued playing with his toy

Charity
All animal behaviour ( includes us ) is, in elementary simplistic terms, spilt into 2 parts –

Everything we willingly do is named ‘reward behaviour’ – the terms ‘reward’ and ‘punishment’ are something the animal perceives as a  consequence of any behaviour, not something you do or offer to an animal.

 Given more than one choice of external ‘rewards’ which a behaviour obtains for your dog/any animal the dog will chose the behaviour which offers the ‘greatest’ reward outcome. Any behaviour other than that, the dog itself would see it as a punishment, the outcome is not as favourable.

Humans example - “ I want to stay out and play dad, don’t make me come inside yet”

– playing behaviour is the greater reward,
-  having to go inside which is punishment behaviour.

If the parent makes the child go inside he/she has ‘punished’ the child.

If you interpret that into your situation above – playing with the ball behaviour was the ‘greater reward’ – going inside would have been a punishment – to the dog .

When your OT removed the ball he attempted to induce a ‘negative punishment’ to the dog – but – the dog experienced being out in the garden as a greater reward than going inside after the ball

– in other words – the ball in the garden was a reward BUT the ball in the house would have been a punishment to the dog compared to the reward experience to the  dog of being outside (the greater reward) – rewards and punishments are not constant outside laboratory conditions – they both fluctuate, second by second in value depending on other things available to them

All animals perform behaviours which to them are the ‘greater reward'.

crazyfrog339
He's also stopped responding to any other command either,

Charity
Yes – it is not a phase – you have inadvertently taught that ‘disobedience’ is a rewarding behaviour. Because disobedience is now rewarding to the dog, now he will allways ignore you when it suits him, thats what he has been taught to do.


If you dont understand bits of the above just ask and isolate any bits.

[kizkiznobite]

sorry charity - not sure if this is the place for trainers/behaviourists to debate theories  but I would like to understand your reasoning about this not being a phase with a dog that has yet to reach adulthood. (only because i get obsessive about these things )

behavioural endocrinology studies have clearly determined the effects hormonal release has on learning, with change in the intensity or the probability of  behaviours being sustained or learned. the hormonal messages being involuntary, cannot be controlled and their presence effects early learning development and memory capacity.  once the dog has learned to cope with the sexual stimulus produced by the hormones then normal function returns - this may be sporadic over time in a pattern as fewer synaptic connections are being made.  is this not therefore what most people would call a 'teenage stage'?

[charityuk]

Kiz
behavioural endocrinolgy studies have clearly determined the effects hormonal release has on learning, with change in the intensity or the probability of a behaviours being sustained or learned

Ch
Hi, I think you mean puberty, am I right? showing all mammal males start to manufacture  testotstrone I think in many dogs its estimated at between 9-15% but they cannot get it closer with dogs because they are a synthetic species and characterisitics are not as universal as wild animals.Females the same changes and the manufacture of different chemicals at pubery which were/are absent prior puberty croosses all species.

But please post a study ref as without one studies should never be quoted because they cannot be checked as to exactly what is/has been concluded and from what study criterea.

I interprete what you say as meaning that dureing the periods of new chemicals being manufactured by the animal - that phase - is not sustained for life in its intensity/degree. Is that what you mean?

Yes the degrees of many things are different throughout life-they are not as 'bouncy' playfull after they leave puppy hood. The intenstity degree of behaviours at puberty and for around another year or 15 months is more intense and it is common in all mammals.

However,this does notstop learning, teaching methods need to be adjusted. So I guess my question is, have I understood you correctly or are you saying dogs and all mammals cannot be taught from puberty to late adolescence?

Buy please quote the study ref - as you probably know the bio-sceince behavioural studies on doemstic caninids are largely laughed at by phycisists as a joke, which is why I used the operant terms, they are not science except maths. How do I use quotes on here, thanks.

[kizkiznobite]

Kiz

However,this does notstop learning, teaching methods need to be adjusted. So I guess my question is, have I understood you correctly or are you saying dogs and all mammals cannot be taught from puberty to late adolescence?

of course that is not what i am saying -  i train, re train and modify at all ages - and i do not dispute the operant context of your post at all in fact totally agree what i am saying is that this is a phase do to the hormone development taking in place hence my advice to take the learning back to the basic criterai level.


[/[/b]i]Buy please quote the study ref - as you probably know the bio-sceince behavioural studies on doemstic caninids are largely laughed at by phycisists as a joke, which is why I used the operant terms, they are not science except maths.

i would if i could but my comp has had a breakdown and am using a mates and have no discs with me - i typed what i could remember from my understandiing of the study of hormones on learning - at a guess i would say it is mark plonsky and/or ian dunbar




How do I use quotes on here, thanks.

[kizkiznobite]

haha - i can't seem to learn how to use the quote function either

[kizkiznobite]

Charity
Yes – it is not a phase – you have inadvertently taught that ‘disobedience’ is a rewarding behaviour. Because disobedience is now rewarding to the dog, now he will allways ignore you when it suits him, thats what he has been taught to do.
 

to clarify

what i would say is
 'you have inadvertently taught that ‘disobedience’ is a rewarding behaviour. Because disobedience is now rewarding to the dog, and he has learned choice - and at this phase in his life when there is hormone development - then learning needs to be conducted and re-enforced at the lowest criteria'

[parker]

sorry just had to say this is all greek to me

[kizkiznobite]

basically,  to put it in my fathers lingo - what we are talking about is ' if/ when the brains are in the balls are the wits out of the window'

[parker]

Now I understand

[piglet]

Hi,

What they are trying to say is ... you have taught your dog that -

let out into garden = exciting
staying out in garden = exciting
coming in = boring

thats why your dog doesnt want to come in.  as i said - i would put a long line on to take away the 'choice' and if dog comes in then lots of praise and play to show them its exciting inside too.

i too would take it back to basics - something you want = praise, something you dont want = ignored (and ignoring includes not letting your dog be perfectly ammused by itself !!).  Personally I find hand signals work better than voice - i agree dont re-command too much or they will just ignore u aswell

however IMHO - it is a 'teenage' phase, all dogs get a bit pushy and disobedient   it is at this *PHASE* (which it is - just a phase) that unwanted *BEHAVIOURS* (that can be lasting) are easily modelled and this is whats happened here - dont worry you can un-model and he will grow out of the *PHASE* part .... eventually !!

Claire x