Help! he's driving me mad!!

[Jayne, Baby Erin, Murphy and Spud]

Oh, we'll have to wait to see what Bev says then!?!?   

I've sussed it, only this morning, if I talk to Murphy in an over excited voice in the garden he comes straight to me wagging his tail!!!  You try it see if it works LOL  Let me know if it does!!  Also, I now carry on playing with him as soon as we get back in the house so the coming in the house bit is also exciting to him!!  It's working so far!!

[Val]

Your right Jayne always act like an over excited nut with a high pitched voice and they will come running if you have neighbours they are usually running the other way 
Val

Oh, we'll have to wait to see what Bev says then!?!?   

I've sussed it, only this morning, if I talk to Murphy in an over excited voice in the garden he comes straight to me wagging his tail!!!  You try it see if it works LOL  Let me know if it does!!  Also, I now carry on playing with him as soon as we get back in the house so the coming in the house bit is also exciting to him!!  It's working so far!!

[Jayne, Baby Erin, Murphy and Spud]

It works, so I don't care        My adjoining neighbours are a strange bunch anyway so they probably won't bat an eyelid !! 

[kizkiznobite]

I am also having similar problems have a 7 month old male, who is perfect at recall in the house, garden and at training class, but once outside at the beach or park, he suddenly forgets you exist, and loses his hearing.  He does not respond to toys, or smelly food (liver cake yum!) or even when you hide, he doesnt even notice your gone (though owners of other dogs certainly do notice you have high tailed it away from him.)  can anyone help!!

harvey whilst this is going on you need to go back to criteria levels 1 -2 then 3 -4 before testing outside, see the bit i did on criteria - if you keep allowing the breakdown when out you are rewarding the dog for breaking the cue - he needs to be prevented from doing this - so if you have to give that much exercise then get him on a lunge line - i would also start training the recall to whistle if you do not have that on cue already - start at criteria one just the same and work up the scale - always new cue old cue - so 3 blasts quickly (2 10 1/2 gun dog whistle ) followed by your normal recall - ie harvey here or what ever it is.

[kizkiznobite]

ok - listen up cos i keep repeating myself here

the message is - 'the best place to be is around my feet - sometimes i will tell you to go play, have a pee, run and chase, but even so the best place to be is still around my feet, but i am happy for you to not be there at this moment in time but when i call you you will come back cos the best place to be is around my feet'

when the dog realises he/she has a choice and decides that the best place to be is elsewhere - then if you allow it to continue/happen then he/she will make the choice to not be around your feet and will hunt, play, because he/she has decided the self rewards of freedom are better and will also use it as a means of controlling you for attention. ie the dog is also learning to push your buttons.

when this happens in the nutty stages of life - ie when the sexual instinct is strong or a hunt has been very successful and he/she has actually found out there is a reward greater than what you got in pockets - then take it all back to criteria 1, when fluent criteria 2, when fluent criteria 3, when fluent criteria 4 - then and only then test it at criteria 5 - it is a pain in the butt - the dog will work to avoid you managing him/her, he/she will make you cross, frustrated, guilty to the point where you wished you could stay in bed and forget his/her's exsistence, the dog will make you feel that you are depriving him/her of exercise, playtime. the dog will look at you and be saying 'this is serious neglect'.  TOUGH - he/she will survive - and the more you deprive then the faster you will get the recall back because the dog will realise that he/she has to do this to get that final reward. ie being allowed to run/hunt/play but under management from you.

most car accidents involving dogs are due to a bad recall, most livestock being injured/chased are due to a bad recall, most dogs shot for worrying livestock are due to a bad recall, most dog fights are due to a bad recall. most dogs running off and getting lost are due to bad recall.
 you cannot stop the genetics kicking in - but you can manage them and for anyone reading this that is about to get a puppy - you will reduce the possibility of going through this if you do not take the puppy out off leash until you have:

recall to criteria 4
location to criteria 4
leash to criteria 4
leave it to criteria 4
STOP to criteria 4

and if that takes 6 weeks or 6 months so be it. brose had a fluent and reliable recall without hesitation to 95% by 20 weeks - yes i know, i am a trainer she is a superstar but if ever the day comes that she fails a recall i will shoot us both.
Now - manic maud  just so you know that i do know what you are up against - if i can do this with her - and it took me 9 months - then you lot can do this with pups.

 any questions?

bev has now finished her rant

[kizkiznobite]

10 months.
The rope thing for the garden works if he goes out alone.  if the others go with him he trips them up with it (on perpose) when they are trying to come in when called!  so he's out alone now!

then he has won - he has the reward that he wanted - he is pushing all those buttons and now he has also learned that he can win - he will move it on - i await the next problem

[kizkiznobite]

Bev

cocking the leg is a sign that puberty has commenced

Murphy occasionally lifts his leg now (not very high) but you can tell he's doing it.  Isn't he a bit young for puberty (he was 6 months old yesterday (Monday)?

no - he is not too young - he can father puppy's, is aware of the sexual urge, will start to want to be the boss, will revert back to being a small pup one minute and think he's a dog of the world the next - in fact, just like a teenage boy.

age? - it varies between dogs and breeds - in my opinion i have always found that the working breeds of herders and hunters reach puberty earlier than others - no scientific back up just experience - do you agree with that Val?

[piglet]

Border Collies - 'teenage stage' can be from 6 months ...

(to about 5 years ...  - ahem)

claire x

[baby b]

 

bev has now finished her rant       

you go for it girl 

[crazyfrog339]

10 months.
The rope thing for the garden works if he goes out alone.  if the others go with him he trips them up with it (on perpose) when they are trying to come in when called!  so he's out alone now!

then he has won - he has the reward that he wanted - he is pushing all those buttons and now he has also learned that he can win - he will move it on - i await the next problem

No, you misunderstand me, i dont mean he's out alone as in without the rope, i mean he cant go out with the rest of the gang.  He's out on the rope, does his business and in again - no fun, no-one to play with or impress and only a reward for coming back in. (should the reward still happen if he has to be pulled in rather than coming in voluntarily?)
Had a little success this morning, one of the kids opened the door before i had chance to say 'he's not on the rope yet!', didnt let the others out and he came back as soon as i called.  Tried it again 30 minutes later but no luck so he's still on the rope!

[kizkiznobite]

i never pull my dogs anywhere, if you pull a dog it is instinct to pull back  - if they dont come i go and fetch them on leash motivating them with a high quality reward.

when you let him out does he see the reward waiting for him for when he gets back - see my tip about doing stuff at dinner time once the food is ready and waiting - in tip of the day post i think from a few days ago.

[crazyfrog339]

Sorry, didnt explain that very well did i?  i didnt mean 'pull' as in literally pull at the rope!  I usually just tap the rope to make it nudge him so he looks at me (- he's still ignoring my voice!) then show him a reward and he comes in.  I then make a big fuss of him and he gets the reward, i was just a bit unsure if this should actually be rewarded, it feels like i am encouraging him to ignore me and then get a treat.
I've just let him see me prepare his lunch then sent him out without the rope, he went out and did what he had to do and as soon as he'd finished i called him and he came straight back in so maybe at mealtimes he wont need the rope, (fingers crossed!! )

[kizkiznobite]

you must always reward for a recall - he associates the reward with the last behaviour - which is coming to you -not with the refusal - we only have between 3 and 5 seconds to punish or reward a behaviour anything else and the dog does not know what either is for.

this is why a dog should never be told off when he eventually comes back - we telliing off for not coming back but the dog thinks i am being told off for coming back

and please crazy - you need to take the recall back to criteria 1 - that means practice in the house - get it fluent and reliable with a verbal, visual and whistle cue before trying it off leash outside.