Author Topic: charging a clicker  (Read 22231 times)

dogdiplomacy

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Re: charging a clicker
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2009, 10:14:01 AM »
While there are some interesting comments about the clicker and its use in training on this thread, I do have to say that I disagree with the methods described for charging and then its application.

Firstly, there is a suggestion that it can take up to 90 treats, some on the floor and some from the hand. That is too time consuming and offers the opportunity to train your dog something you didn't want such as scavenging.

Secondly, it is said on here that the click means a treat will follow. This is fundamentally wrong.!! The click is used to MARK THE END of A behaviour. If it were to mean that when dog hears a click that a treat will follow then it would also be true that the dog should come back to the handler when working at distance to get his treat. This is not really practical in training and will in fact slow the training process and lead to frustration of both dog and handler.

As an alternative method to charging the clicker, try this method.

Stage 1 - Sit with your dog. In one hand have the clicker and the other some treats. Click and immediately give the dog a treat. Repeat about 10 times. Then Stop.

Stage 2 - Still sat in front of your dog you now wait for them to look at the clicker. When they look at the clicker you click and reward. Repeat this about 10 times. Then Stop.

Stage 3 - Still sat in front of your dog you now wait for them to touch the clicker. The clicker has now become the target. Each time your dog touches the clicker you click and treat. Repeat about 10 times. Then Stop.

Stage 4 - The clicker is almost 'Charged'. Now we ask the dog to carry out some basic work such as sit, down, paw etc etc. Exercises that the dog already knows. Each time you ask for a sit and the dog sits, you then click, at some time shortly afterwards you can give a treat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Now the clicker is charged.

There is no rush to get the treat into the dogs mouth. The association is that the click is the marker.

In this approach to clicker training the dog works for the click. The dog has it in his mind that HE has pressed the clicker. That his action has caused the click. This way when at a distance you can click multiple times before the dog needs any food reward.

xtine

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Re: charging a clicker
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2009, 10:18:26 AM »
Our dog was charged to the clicker by Bev, have seen it done and he definitely knows that the action causes the click

He does not always have to come back to the hand for the reward at all

xtine

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Re: charging a clicker
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2009, 10:19:26 AM »
Hi and welcome to the board.. there is an introductions section somewhere  - you could tell us more about you and your dogs  :ok:

kizkiznobite

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Re: charging a clicker
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2009, 10:34:02 AM »
hi and welcome...nice to have another trainer on board

what ever works is my rule... i have a dog that knows if i have a button clicker in hand ( i have a damaged hand and sometimes have to use a button press clicker) he can knock hand to produce click just for the reward with no other offered behaviour...i work him on those days away from my hands...he knows the difference between the clickers ....as for mutliple clicks i assume you are rewarding with other than food before the bingo reward of food? and i certainly do that as the training progresses.....if you read more of my stuff you will see that i dont say food has to be the only reward....and yep...with some old, damaged, distrurbed, aggressive problem dogs then it can take 90 or more and i certainly would not be encouraging a dog that has bite problems near my hand at such an early stage of training and remodification....i have also had pups that have been charged in 5...the methods i use work for me as i am sure your's does for you...this was the way i was taught and i do it this way 90% of the time....it depends on the initial assessment...this post was written for those working without prof. instuction

xtine

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Re: charging a clicker
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2009, 10:38:16 AM »
We had Fritz done in way less than 90.. but we had to take it slower when you came round didn't we Bev.. cause of him having issues about new person in the house... which is why we had you there in the first place. it took him a few to 'trust' you. That wasn't about charging him tho really was it.. was more about 'you and him' if that makes sense? You're better at explaining this Bev  :embarrass:

kizkiznobite

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Re: charging a clicker
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2009, 10:46:21 AM »
basically xtine...as in the 'what dogs say to behaviourists post'.......fritz was in this is my house and i need to protect it and my folk and i see the f up fairy has arrived mode :D :D

it was charging with some added in....he had to accept my presence and understand that he would get a reward after a click before we could move it on to using the click to mark the required behaviour...he had to decide if it was worth being nice to me and then having decided that ..if it was worth working for me and yep...that meant i had to earn his trust....had much worse xtine ...much much worse ....on a scale of 1 to 10...he about 3  :) daft hairy scruffbag  :-*



xtine

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Re: charging a clicker
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2009, 10:49:16 AM »
is an amazing training tool.. he loves it.. and even when we haven't used it for a while, he still knows the sound of it when it comes out of the draw and he is ready and very keen!!  :D But because it is so effective it has to be used with extreme accuracy  :embarrass: I sometimes wonder if we'd be better him clicker training us  :D

kizkiznobite

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Re: charging a clicker
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2009, 10:54:38 AM »
he got you well enough trained already me thinks  :gum: and he didnt need a clicker  :agree:

xtine

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Re: charging a clicker
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2009, 10:56:49 AM »
 :help:  :surrender: too true

dogdiplomacy

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Re: charging a clicker
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2009, 04:41:01 PM »

It does once the dog knows what the 'click' means but first you have to teach the dog that a 'click' means he/she is getting a treat. Thats what Kiz means by charging the clicker, once the dog understands this then you can click when the dog does what you want and they know a treat will follow.

I really hate quoting people on places like this as it can easily be seen as rude, so sorry Lassie, this is nothing personal.

That said however, it really does start with this comment above "that a 'click' means he/she is getting a treat."

This is where I take concern. I see too many people trying to clicker train and fail. They use it for all the wrong reasons and at the wrong times, they then hurriedly get a treat into the dogs mouth because they have been told 'click means treat'. When, in fact, click means 'correct behaviour'. The click itself has a positive association in the dogs mind because we have correctly set it up with food rewards.

This is why myself and other behaviourists will use devices such as the training discs as pioneered by the late John Fisher with a set up in reverse of clicker training. When using discs the 'chink' MARKS a bad behaviour because it is associated with the removal of a food treat.

The clicker does not need to be charged with food, it just needs to be charged with something the dog really likes.

kizkiznobite

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Re: charging a clicker
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2009, 05:56:26 PM »
the thread is about 'charging' not about future use...and if you had read my reply you would see that i constantly say in clicker posts food does not have to be the only reward ...if the dog is not charged then click does not mean you have done what i want....it is just a noise...again if read my stuff correctly i constantly say the click is just a marker...a bridge....

this is just semantics...as in lassies quote the word 'treat' is used....it just another way of saying reward...if i say want a treat to my pack manager she runs to the toy cupboard and waits for a squeaky toy...my young boyo pup is the secong clumber i have had that wont work for food prefering my social appraisal....


and as for training discs...the great late john fisher and i long ago agreed to disagree on their use ...there are other threads on here about them
« Last Edit: June 03, 2009, 06:13:33 PM by kizkiznobite »

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Re: charging a clicker
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2009, 06:54:38 PM »
That said however, it really does start with this comment above "that a 'click' means he/she is getting a treat."

Treat doesn't necessarily mean food, in my rough's case it means her ball.

 They use it for all the wrong reasons and at the wrong times, they then hurriedly get a treat into the dogs mouth because they have been told 'click means treat'. When, in fact, click means 'correct behaviour'. The click itself has a positive association in the dogs mind because we have correctly set it up with food rewards.
Click means buggerall if the dog doesn't link the sound with some reward, he/she has no idea it means the behaviour is correct.
That may come later.
 You seem to have contradicted yourself with the above statement :confused:
'click means treat' is wrong according to your post but then you say The click itself has a positive association in the dogs mind because we have correctly set it up with food rewards
By the way this thread is about charging a clicker not teach the dog new behaviours with it.


Handle every stressful situation like a dog.
If you can't eat it or play with it,
Just pee on it and walk away

kizkiznobite

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Re: charging a clicker
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2009, 07:06:12 PM »
'The click itself has a positive association in the dogs mind because we have correctly set it up with food rewards.'
quote


yep.....we have 'charged it'  :)

*Lassie*

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Re: charging a clicker
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2009, 07:14:30 PM »
'The click itself has a positive association in the dogs mind because we have correctly set it up with food rewards.'
quote


yep.....we have 'charged it'  :)

 :ok: :ok: :ok: :agree: ;D


Handle every stressful situation like a dog.
If you can't eat it or play with it,
Just pee on it and walk away

xtine

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Re: charging a clicker
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2009, 08:55:40 PM »
are training discs those things that look a bit like castonnettes  that get thrown / dropped on the floor?  >:D