charging a clicker

[Izzie]

yep Xtine

[dogdiplomacy]

That said however, it really does start with this comment above "that a 'click' means he/she is getting a treat."

Treat doesn't necessarily mean food, in my rough's case it means her ball.

 They use it for all the wrong reasons and at the wrong times, they then hurriedly get a treat into the dogs mouth because they have been told 'click means treat'. When, in fact, click means 'correct behaviour'. The click itself has a positive association in the dogs mind because we have correctly set it up with food rewards.
Click means buggerall if the dog doesn't link the sound with some reward, he/she has no idea it means the behaviour is correct.
That may come later.
 You seem to have contradicted yourself with the above statement
'click means treat' is wrong according to your post but then you say The click itself has a positive association in the dogs mind because we have correctly set it up with food rewards
By the way this thread is about charging a clicker not teach the dog new behaviours with it.

I don't think that was a contradiction at all. I can see where that can be thought though.

Many trainers I have come across, several manuals I have read and countless posts on other forums get into the routine that when using clicker training with dogs that the click means treat. Whereas what I am saying, (and where I believe we agree kizkiznobite) is that the click means behaviour done. Many users follow this mentality and end up either throwing in the towel or worse still with bad behaviours from confused dogs.

The fact that I say "The click itself has a positive association in the dogs mind because we have correctly set it up with food rewards" simply means that. The click is associated with something the dog likes, as rightly said already by you both 'Treat' does not necessarily mean food, it just means something nice. We suggest food as it is by far the easiest way to offer a reward to the majority of dogs. As the dog offers a behaviour we want, we click, the dog has it in his mind that the click is nice therefore he must have done something to cause the click, then he will repeat the same behaviour over and over again to make the click. I know I am over simplifying that last part.

I am not intentionally taking this thread off topic, I just wanted to offer an alternative method to charging the clicker and answer some earlier comments that did suggest, as quoted, that the click meant treat.

The dog should be working for the click not the treat.

Kizkiznobite - I did read your post, just not thoroughly enough. It is such a refreshing change to hear someone say 'whatever works is my rule'. There are too many trainers out there at the moment, both here and abroad, who are stuck in the one method for all approach to dog training and then leave the best of us to pick up the pieces and rehabilitate both dog and owner.

[*Nat*]

Dogdiplomacy - welcome to the board - you obviously have alot of knowledge, why don't you introduce yourself in the Introductions section and tell us a bit about yourself, your dogs etc 

[kizkiznobite]

thank you

although...i am now wondering if you understand what i mean by charging...it is a karen pryor term...for making that association between click reward etc and should never be done as a training/freeshaping exercise ..i also would like a response re the mutliple clicks that you mention...as i made assumption...

[dogdiplomacy]

kizkiznobite - when mentioning multiple clicks I am referring to distance training.

So, you may send your dog away and ask them to stop - click - then you ask them to down - click - then you ask them to ....... the  idea being that you are getting several individual behaviours from your dog before you have to deliver on 'the treat' of whatever it may be either food or toy etc. In this way, if the dog is working for the click, then you can behaviour click, behaviour click, behaviour click, behaviour click, behaviour click, treat.

In terms of 'charging the clicker' the goal is to move the food down the list of reinforcer's and the clicker up that same list. In other words the clicker should become the reinforcer above the 'treat'. The click is more important in the dogs mind than the treat.

Edited to add below and correct my spelling above.

Not quite sure where you are going with your statement around training/freeshaping?

[Sweetypye]

In other words the clicker should become the reinforcer above the 'treat'. The click is more important in the dogs mind than the treat

Hmm I do not think so, the clicker is the SECONDARY or CONDITIONED reinforcer, the PRIMARY reinforcer wil be what the dog works for could be food, ball, sniff, etc.

We know that "treatless clicks" tend to result in frustration and extinction of behaviours.

To quote the doyenne of clicker training Karen Pryor:

 We use the clicker to tell our dogs, "That right there is what I want!" The power of the click, to the trainer, is as an event marker.

To the dog, however, the power of the click is as a signal that he gets something he wants. If he can get something he wants by listening to the click and then repeating that behavior you want, then we've found a wonderful win-win tool. But when you take away his motivation for listening, then the clicker is nothing but a tin noisemaker.

[kizkiznobite]

yep SP 

get the behaviour

(by cue, freeshape, trapping)

mark the behaviour

(secondary re-enforce by clicking, voice, body language)

re-enforce the behaviour

(by reward)

basic rules

never work distance until dog is clicker fluent at close behaviours....

diminsh rewards by series or chaining

what you click for is what you get

mis-click still reward

basic rules....

[kizkiznobite]

So, you may send your dog away and ask them to stop - click - then you ask them to down - click - then you ask them to ....... the  idea being that you are getting several individual behaviours from your dog before you have to deliver on 'the treat' of whatever it may be either food or toy etc. In this way, if the dog is working for the click, then you can behaviour click, behaviour click, behaviour click, behaviour click, behaviour click, treat.

now you have really confused me.....are you saying that you do not reward each behaviour when a click has been given  ....sorry ..but this breaks all the rules of using a clicker correctly...if you want a series or a chain then you should not click between each behaviour....this is that basic rule of diminishing the click...twofers, threefers, chain or series....put mango in the search engine and see my old, ill, boyo's chained behaviour, and that not just at insight distance that is going out of the room to totally out of sight/hearing locations

makes no diffent close or distance....
with a pup of my own the click food is stopped totally by 9 months on basic behavious...i wont risk extinction and i wont carry a clicker for life....

as for charging....it just that ...pure and simple ...the start for a new dog to associate click means something good is coming
the charging should never ever be used as a training excerise like getting the dog to touch something ( a free shape) for example...until the clicker is charged then it should be used as a training tool

sorry...but you are teaching the operant science process and principles of clicker use incorrectly

used correctly...and there is then no need to ever use aids like discs, check chains etc etc 

R+ ...works 99% of the time

[dogdiplomacy]

Also from Karen Pryor.

Conditioned reinforcer
    A neutral stimulus paired with a primary reinforcer until the neutral stimulus takes on the reinforcing properties of the primary. A clicker, after being repeatedly associated with a food treat or other reinforcer, becomes a conditioned reinforcer.

Treatless clicks can result in extinction of behaviours but done properly can result in a set of behaviours to be carried out. Treatless clicks as you have assumed means in my mind that a dog is clicked for every behaviour possible for an entire session and then at the very end of the session gets 1 treat.

In my description I mean for a small group off behaviours.

[*Lassie*]

When are you going to introduce yourself properly dogdiplomacy ?

[Izzie]

Also from Karen Pryor.

Conditioned reinforcer
    A neutral stimulus paired with a primary reinforcer until the neutral stimulus takes on the reinforcing properties of the primary. A clicker, after being repeatedly associated with a food treat or other reinforcer, becomes a conditioned reinforcer.

Treatless clicks can result in extinction of behaviours but done properly can result in a set of behaviours to be carried out. Treatless clicks as you have assumed means in my mind that a dog is clicked for every behaviour possible for an entire session and then at the very end of the session gets 1 treat.

In my description I mean for a small group off behaviours.

You dont explain yourself very well

A small group of behaviours is known as chaining, and you dont click after every behaviour, you build it up.

[Borstal Barkers]

New to site.
I am not a big clicker user, but have used food reward for a lab, funny how that worked so well. However, that dog also after a while refused the food, reason, owner was allowing the dog to graze throughout the day by leaving a food bowl, full of food on the floor, dog, hard to believe for a lab, had had enough food. Change to owners feeding regime and it started to work again.