how to deal with seperation anxiety

[kizkiznobite]

ok - will post what i think then 

[*jody*]

Right, not a very good vid!  Forgot to charge battery so only got 5 mins, but any longer and you would probably get bored!

Couple of things, I dont usually leave it on that radio channel, usually more of a talky one. Hubby should not of told him to go lay down as that was giving him attention, and he's not usually the one leaving him, I am, oh, and the camera does add 10 pounds! My arse isnt really that fat!

When we got home from this, he had only been left and hour, after it stopped filming, he had dragged the chair across the room, ripped the wood off the wall and ripped out one of the stairgate poles.

You can see Amber tries to stop him having access to the door but to no avail. She was also a little moody!

Sorry for the bad resolution, it was to save space.

Oh, and I forgot to turn the bin around!  He had been ignored for about 15 mins prior to us leaving.

[*jody*]

A couple of other things have been pointed out to me, there isnt usually such a fuss about leaving, OH should not have spoken to Dante at all and I told him off afterwards, usually its just me leaving him, and I say nothing, make no big fuss and just go.  However, I made a vid before this (with me dong it all right) and his behaviour was exactly the same, in fact there was worse destruction.

[kizkiznobite]

sorry dan - circumstances - didnt get chance to reply

yep i picked up that and wondered

i think what you have is a classically conditioned response to being left - this would have happened through success or re-enforcement between 9 and 18 ish weeks

it then turned operant and he now makes choices

being left is causing him severe responsive actions because that is then re-enforced on your return

so in order to help need much more info - not the basics much more - for example - the crate training - how fast etc what mistakes did you make
what did you say and do in those early early days and i mean literally as in body language not just voice
what herbal stuff if any have you tried
if he was mine he would be on st j worts by now and i would be working to get cues in place and also re-enforcing the self cues

remind me what he is fed on and how often

[*jody*]

This is the story up until we thought he was over it...

http://www.noahsarkessences.com/page_1190391722524.html

Rosi is sending me some more essences to try so I am going to give that a go.

Describing the first few weeks in a little bit more detail (i.e. our behaviour).  TBH, I was trying so hard not to vomit climbing under a table to clean poo off crate bars with babywipes, I wasnt really paying Dante much attention after I had bathed him down outside (he looked like he rolled in it).  It used to take me a god hour to completely clean up after him.  I'd say we perservered with the crate/cage for at least a month if not longer before we finally gave up.  As in my story, we fed him in it, praise him if he ever went there on his own accord (the home he came from - he was crated with his brother so was not foreign to crates, just foreign to one on his own), we tried to make it a really nice place for him, but he decided it was his toilet (even though I used to go outside with him before I left and made sure he went outside and gave him lots of praise.

I think the only times he has been told off for going in the house is when he pee'd in the middle of our bed, and when he poo'd in my daughter's room and covered it up with a rug, and I didnt know until the next morning and my daughter had slept in there all night so I was no a happy bunny - she was only 18 months - both of these times was way after we gave up with the crates.

As in body language, I was usually in tears cleaning the cage, I had two children demanding my attention in the next room and I my PND had come back - I was signed off from work for 4 months shortly after we got Dante - you may be thinking not a good time to get a dog, unfortunately I feel that is what tipped me.  So I blame myself, I wasnt in a positive frame of mind for a few months until I was better, but on the plus side I didnt go out much, so didnt have to leave him a lot.

Im trying to be as honest as possible as I know without giving you a full picture you're not going to know the true story.

He is fed on Autarky, twice a day watered down as he tends not to eat it as fast as when it is dry.  Its the only food we have found (other than RAW but that got expensive for us in our situation) that doesnt give him horrendous wind or the runs.

[kizkiznobite]

ok dan  thanks for that and your honesty

i think reading what you have said and between the lines you have had a communication issue with this pup from day one - for example - you told him off for messing in daughters room etc but it was far far too late he would have been so confused at that telling off as he wouldnt have related that with the behaviour - also your distress would have increased his anxiety when you were cleaning him up - he has moved all this stuff on - the classical conditioning has now turned operant - if you pm me i will send you some docs about this - when you left him in the crate did you lock it - did you start to lock it too soon but more importantly did you lock it when he was anxious?
have you ever had the asking to go toilet and then going to the toilet on any cues at all?
what other trining have you done with him - has he been to puppy socialisation and trainign classess?
what have the behaviourists said to you to do so far

tell me about the first 24 hours of his life with you - what did you do and say to and with him in that time - how did you settle him in - how did you try and start the toilet training

would you say that you are praising him for doing good at the right time - at exactly the right time i mean - withing 5 seconds of doing a good behaviour?

when you come in how does he greet you? how do you greet him ? what is your anxiety level like just before you enter - where is he as you go in the door etc

was his behaviour any better when he was on raw?

where does he sleep at night now and how well is he bonding with amber - whats amber like with him - is she mothering him or guiding him in anyway - i dont mean when they are playing i mean in general - how are they communicating and what cues does she have in place?

[*jody*]

We did really know much about the crate training, only what our vet had advised.  We may of started locking it too soon and possibly anxious, but not as bad as he is now when I leave.  I used to ask him to go in and give him a treat for going in there, then shut the door and go.

The first 24 hrs, well, as you saw on the story, I set him up and area which he busted out of within 10 mins, so he ended up sleeping in the front room with OH the first night, not a good start.  I bought the crate the next day and immediately tried to get him used to it.  Re toilet, I would go outside with him until I went using wee wee's as a cue, he grasped onto that one v.quickly and a few weeks later would go 'wee wee's' before I left on cue, until he saw this as meaning as I leaving him (even though I did ask him at other times) and he would just sit and look at me.

At first the vets told me to perserve with the crate training and he should grow out of messing all over himself.  I then spoke to a local behaviourist who told me about the ignoring him before I left and when I came in, and not punishing him for what he had done.  Also to try leaving an item of our clothing with him etc.  Independent local pet shop owners recommended puppy kongs, moleculs etc.  Trouble his although he is very food orientated normally, he wont touch food or water when I am gone.  I tried using one toy as a leaving cue but he wouldnt take any interest, he was too interested in watching me leave.

Ive spoken to so many people since we got him its hard to remember who has told me what.  The last behaviorist I saw told me to try scent conditioning, spraying a purfume through the letterbox before I come in and gradually do this before I leave, but TBH he is sooo wound up I dont know if it would even have an effect.

He was always praised immediately with treats, he hasnt had any formal training other than what we have done.  Ive also just started clicker training with both of them too.

As soon as we were told to ignore the over the top greeting we did so, so we ignore him until he settles down now which takes a good 30 mins before he is completely calm.  He is always at the door when we get in.

At the moment he sleeps in the kitchen and Amber in the front room as she is in season, but usually they both sleep in the kitchen.  He gets on well with Amber and now they are calm with each other (the last two behaviourists I spoke to re Amber suggested I stopped their play fighting to calm Amber and teach her to be calm round other dogs)

She is definately boss out of the two of them, but she no longer bullies him since I stopped the playfighting.  As you can see in the vid she tries to stop him doing what he is doing though and tells him off.  She is absoluntely fine with me leaving her.  When she sees Im going out she just lays down, and is also very calm when I return as well.

[kizkiznobite]

so when you first brought him home you enclosed him? in an area? and he then got out of that and was rewarded and then he had company all night then you isolated him in a crate after he had learnt there was other options and the response was anxiety yes?

that is the classical conditioning bit

now it has all intensified and has 'moved on' and you now have a mix of operant conditioning with the old classical conditioning

he has been taught to be anxious and it is now out of his control - that with lack of training and poor socialisation means you have one very frustrated under stimulated insecure pup

you have few choices really
i would say you need to go right back to day one and remodify all this but that will take hours and patience and cetainly no shouting or negative body language
if he was mine i would dump the essences and get him on at the least st j wort - that will take about 10 days to kick in if it works - failing that i would be speaking to the vet re clomicalm

the other option is to rehome/return to breeder

you cannot now just step in and try and train otherwise - he is mentally conditioned - it all needs undoing then re starting but as i said that takes hours

i rescued a lab that had had a start like this - took me 9 months with the first month being 24 hours a day

sorry if that all sounds a bit harsh but to isolate a puppy on day one and try and instill adult behaviours from that first day with little guidance or play training etc and then confuse him by allowing what is not going to be allowed in the future was asking for trouble - i understand that you had little experience but your breeder should have been guiding you through this - they not a breed for the fainthearted at the best of times

good luck - i hope you can sort it out 

[Val]

IMO this lad needs rehoming to a more experienced Mal home to have any chance of getting his head together, Can he not go back to the breeder?
As for starting clicker training I have yet to see a self taught clicker train work
Sorry but with children and two dogs one suffering total confusion I would recommend rehoming
Val

[SuzAndTheDiva]

Val I think The lad is the Inuit and the girlie is the Mal 

[Val]

Whoops age and tiredness thats my excuse  whatever that lads brains are scrambled IMO

Val I think The lad is the Inuit and the girlie is the Mal 

[*jody*]

so when you first brought him home you enclosed him? in an area? and he then got out of that and was rewarded and then he had company all night then you isolated him in a crate after he had learnt there was other options and the response was anxiety yes?

he has been taught to be anxious and it is now out of his control - that with lack of training and poor socialisation means you have one very frustrated under stimulated insecure pup

Hiya, I take on all you said.  The breeder said the first night was the most important night, and it failed miserably.  She suggested the crating and the enclosed area was the best I could do close enough to a crate.

When you mean poor socialisation do you mean with other dogs?  We have always made a big effort socialising him from the second day we had him, introduced him with all family owned dogs, i.e. my SIL, MIL's, Mums, neighbours dogs and when we were out we always made sure he met other dogs (as long as it was okay with other owners.  Sorry if this is the wrong end of the stick, its just what I always think of by socialisation.

We have taught him the basics, Im not sure where I went wrong with the training as we played in the garden all the time and did basic training/tricks with him.

The clicker training is something I have literally only just started last week, at the moment we are only on 'attention' and it was amazing to see how quick he caught onto it.  I try to walk/jog with him as much as I can but was leaving the 'working' stuff until he was old enough I could take him out for longer.

I know what works for one dog doesnt always work for another.  I dont know anyone personally that has ever crate trained for example, all family/friends have never had these sorts of problems.

OH still think its just normal puppy behaviour and he will grow out of it, I dont think it is.  This isnt normal as far as Im concerned...
I came home earlier and he has destroyed the earlier mentioned stairgate, it was hanging off the hinges.

Hiya Val, yes the boy with the SA, Dante, is a British Inuit.  My other one is Amber, a kinda rescue Mally (who is fine being left).

[kizkiznobite]

Hi
an enclosed area yes i suppose so if that is how you meant to continue - i dont do that - i dont have crates at all and never have but accept they have a use if conditioned correctly - i just dont need to use them  - but you immediately taught him it didnt have to be - you enclosed him and he came out of it - went in the living room and then had company all night - he was rewarded for busting out of it - personally i think it hard to enclose a pup from the start - they have to be taught gently what is expected with rewards for choosing to go in - you say you put him in the crate and gave him a reward etc etc but he needed to learn to choose to go in - to go in all by himself - 'look mum i am going to my bed - i am a good boy - yes sweets here is a reward' and then build on that foundation until the door can be shut - yes some dogs do not take to a crate - but your dog isnt taking to anything re being left - the kitchen has become the crate he hates - he learnt to be anxious - he was taught that you leaving was a bad thing - he knows you are coming back - he past that bit long long ago - this is classically conditioned behaviour - he cannot help it just like you cant help coming out in goosebumps when a fork is scratched down a plate - this is clinical severe seperation anxiety - when other people say my dog has SA then in general they just at the start - like folk saying they got flu when they got a cold...what you got is the real thing.

the video speaks volumes - he knows you are going out the anxiety is there within the first few seconds - look at it again closely look at the sitting - ears back the intensity of watching your body actions - someone has told you to put leave a radio on hav'nt they? that switching on of the radio has become a self cue and it fires him up - when i say to clients leave a radio on i define it i say have gentle music playing for quite a while before you go out - something relaxing and quiet (hence the wale songs etc used for humans) - not turn on a local radio prog with loud harsh music and voices as you leave the house...

and the thing that hit me most was the order from your OH - it wasnt a request it was an order a bark - ok i accept you had told him he shouldnt but the thing that hit me was the harshness of tone the strength of the body language - that was 'normal' wasnt it? that has happened before over and over no? because the dog immediately responded - he obeyed the order - his body dropped his tail snuck down and he shot to bed and did lie down and you know what? - he didnt even get a good lad - he got no reward for obeying - he got punished he got left - the learning of being left is a bad thing was re-enforced - and of course he broke the cue - he got up again - the cue wasnt repeated the second time - so the second lesson was ' i dont have to lie down and stay down' he has been hard trained - too firm too much too soon comes to mind - what was wrong with a off to bed lad - good boy here is a treat in a nice gentle daft loving voice?

and amber...you say she telling him - what do you think she is telling him - not to attack the door or howl? yes she is telling him to shut up etc - she offers a number of calming signals too - but she doing it because he is getting on her nerves not because she views it as bad behaviour - that has also added to his anxiety - but at least she is company he interacts a little with her but now he hasnt even got that because she in season - even that has been taken away from him - and what is more she is in the human part of the house where he wants to be - the lad is so confused and distressed - and i guess the rest of the household is too sadly

socialising with dogs that are known is not enough - meet and greet in parks is not enough - too much going on - humans talking to each other about their pups - pups on leashes - being taken away just as the communication starts the play ending etc etc this is why we have puppy parties and socialisation classes - they pick up where mum and siblings left off in the communication learning stakes - that is where you start the cueing and rewarding

i dont understand what you mean by leaving the working stuff until he was old enough

i have always had high drive gunners - they come home in the morning at 8 weeks and by tea time we 'playing' retrieve in the house we are conditioning the drives in other words - by the next day we doing it in the garden - within a few days we doing sits and downs and stays and waits and fetch and 'dead' (giving up a toy from the mouth) etc etc it all done with play and rewards ready for the working stuff and we freeshape - i now use a clicker but have not always - i dont have to correct self learnt stuff - by rewarding the good the bad stops on it's own as a general rule but the most important is that dog is willing and happy while it is learning and by 6 months i expect them to be out in the field - still being puppyish - still learning - but on the way to becoming highly cued in the more advanced stuff

i have a saying if you have read any of my posts...the best place to be is around my feet and when i am not there then wait and have a snoozy for i am coming back soon

you say you have taught him the basics - how? at what criteria? what have you got on cue fluent and reliable without hesitation and at what criteria can you expect it to still be fluent and reliable without hesitation - and pref. with a wag in the tail and a soppy grin on gob

http://www.dogclub.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2438.0.html
criteria

http://www.dogclub.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3153.0.html
the best place to be

this lad needs help - he is past diffusers and essences - he needs clinical help - speak to your vet re clomicalm and get him off additive added food is my advice and then when his brain is unscrambled as val put it - then start again

[*jody*]

Im feeling quite depressed now    Please dont think we have deliberately been bad owners (as it appears we have been).  I have sought so much advice, but maybe too much and it has completely confused him.  I had never even heard of crate training a dog when we got him.

am replying in the post as the board is playing up sorry

it not that i think you have been deliberately bad owners - i can see the struggle can hear the frustration but i do think there was not much research and planning put in place for this lad maybe? how long had you had him booked for - did you visit the litter lots - how did you select him what made you choose that particular pup - what research did you do into housing and homing the breed etc - you say you hadnt heard of crates but there is loads of info re crate training etc - not having a go - just that others will read this and maybe learn from your mistakes ok?

The lady from the APDT also told us to limit the training as this can re-inforce his attachment with us, do the basics but that is all.  He knows more tricks/basics than a lot of dogs I know.

mmm well - you want attachment as the best place to be is...but you also wanted to instil confidence and security and make him feel it ok to be seperate from the pack at times - but he needed teaching that it ok to be left - he needed all those self cues in place - my youngest see's me put on normal shoes? she gives an air kiss and runs waggy tailed straight to her basket picking up favourite toy enroute - i come in toy delivered waggy tailed with hiya you back then - now when she was learning this - if i had used a stern voice she would have viewed it as a punishment she would have wondered what the hell have i done to be left - ok with me?
so how did i do this? day shoes on - she gets excited thinks she coming - not you sweetie - off to bed good girl have a biccy wnat a toy then ok give us a kiss see ya soon and out i went - come in hiya sweets bring the toy then have ya missed me good lass give us a kiss - it a totally different concept yeah?

The working, how I meant it is eventually I want to get a rig or dog scooter and bring them back closest possible to their original purpose.  The vets had advised that exercise should be limited until he reaches 18 months.  I have a harness and gang line on order for Amber so I can use it with her as she is old enough (which reminds me I must ring culpeppers)

I use backpacks with both of them, but again have been advised not to fill his up yet, so his is empty so he gets used to wearing one for the time being.

I have just read some of your posts, and you really know your stuff so I really appreciate you taking your time to evaluate and reply to my posts.

We have really tried to do it all right, but have failed miserably, I can see that now you have put it all into context.

We are going to go back to the RAW diet, we just have to buy a chest freezer so we can order from Landywoods, as we dont have the freezer space to accomodate, no butchers round here that will help either so when we did it - it all had to be supermarket meat which is why it got so expensive.  Once Christmas is over hopefully we should be able to get that all into place though.  Numerous people have told me Autarky was a good food which is why we kept him on it, but I prefer the raw diet for them anyway.

it is a working dog food - high in commercial proteins from  Chicken Meat Meal, Rice, Chicken Fat, with EEC permitted anti oxidants - it is not suitable for this breed living in a house as a family pet in MHO
have a read of feeding bev on a rant
feeding raw is cheap if you are organised - feeding a mix of raw and home cooked is even cheaper - i spend about 30p per dog per day and i have big dogs the boys 38 - 40 kilo the girls 28 - 33 kilo

I am trying the clicker training with support from a dog trainer, so its Im not strictly doing it alone.

good - are you freeshaping? get his brain problem solving - do the snoozy first then you can use it as a cue when you go out

Thank you again for your time, expertise and knowledge.  I think we needed it put in simple english from someone who knows what they are talking about.  I just wish we had been able to get it right from the start instead of ending up in the mess.

[*jody*]

Hiya, thank you for your replies.  I hope that others can learn from our mistakes.  I have been watching OH the last few days and I have noticed when he does training with him, he never verbally praises him, (he treats him).  I pointed this out to him and said, you ask him to do stuff, but dont tell him he's a good boy afterwards, so now Im reminding him 'he did what you asked so tell him he's a good boy'.  I tried to read up on Inuits, but there isnt too much info out there about BI as they are still relatively new, so I read up on Mals and Huskys as that is what he is manily made up of.  We picked up on the early socialisation which we tried our best with etc.  I know your not having a go, its just sad to think despite our best efforts we still got it so wrong.

Ive put to OH (who actually had a go at me the other day when I tried to show him this as he says Im completely obsessing about it and its all I ever talk about) that from now on, not telling off, the best punishment if he feels he has to do it i.e. he's come home to this



Is just to ignore Dante and not say anything.  I only want to give him positive attention - no negative at all.

Ive looked at your feeding threads and they are brilliant.  I preferred the raw diet, and I even made some of the garlic and herd treats that night, which they love.  Im definately going to look into changing their diet, its also nice to see them actually enjoy their food as well.  I wouldnt want to just eat cereal for the rest of my life so I cant expect them to either.

Does the St John Wort have to be for dogs or can I get it from say Holland and Barrett?

I am doing mental excersises for him, such as plant pot game etc, which he is really good at as he is so food orientated.

Its going to be a long hard road, but he did get better once so I know he can do it again.  Im not going to give up on him and just pass the problem on.