Author Topic: HPRs  (Read 4383 times)

GSPmad

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HPRs
« on: October 03, 2008, 02:52:31 PM »
Don't know if this wants to be in here or somewhere else?

I was wondering about similarities and differences between different HPR breeds - specifically GSP, weim and viszla, but not having much experience of the latter two I don't really know how similar and different they are in terms of personalities and behaviours, and have been wondering.

I know GSPs are noisy whingy beggars and I believe weims and viszlas aren't in the same way? And I have seen both weim and viszla described as 'velcro dogs' - if GSPs are meant to be could someone please send Dorain a copy of his job description?  ;D Those are the sort of things I was thinking.
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Sweetypye

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Re: HPRs
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2008, 03:06:28 PM »
On the continent unlike in the UK Weimaraners are not included with GSP etc in Field Trials as they hunt differently.

A Weimaraner is really a tracking dog and hence looks "ploddy" to the flashier GSP, however it rarely misses game.

Apart from colour and size and shape, the obvious differences there are others.

The Weim is probably the hardest or second hardest of the gundogs (GWP being other) as it was originally bred to bring down wild boar and track wounded stag so it ain't a Golden Retriever; also they were designed to exterminate vermin (cats, foxes etc) and be man sharp. 

Personally I have a problem with people describing any breed as a "Velcro" dog, having had 4 Weims I would consider my GSD much more handler dependant than my Weims.  Weims are probably along with the GSP and Brittany the most independant of the HPRs and so you can, if you are not careful, be reduced to a means of transportation and food dispenser.

I find Vizslas much more sensitive than Weims, GSPs a lot more vocal; however these are all generalisations and of course individuals within the breed vary.

I could not cope with a Vizzie and GSPS do nothing for me lookswise; if I had another HPR I would probably go for a GWP.

Does that help any?


GSPmad

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Re: HPRs
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2008, 03:37:16 PM »
On the continent unlike in the UK Weimaraners are not included with GSP etc in Field Trials as they hunt differently.

How do weims hunt then? Do they still do all the pointing and everything too? And air scenting like GSPs?

and so you can, if you are not careful, be reduced to a means of transportation and food dispenser.

I obviously wasn't careful.   :embarrass:

I find Vizslas much more sensitive than Weims, GSPs a lot more vocal; however these are all generalisations and of course individuals within the breed vary.

Interesting... think they are all quite sensitive flowers though really - I have certainly found GSPs sensitive anyway.

Does that help any?

Yes thanks - all part of my insatiable quest for knowledge.  ;D
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GSPmad

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Re: HPRs
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2008, 03:39:40 PM »
The Weim is probably the hardest or second hardest of the gundogs (GWP being other) as it was originally bred to bring down wild boar and track wounded stag so it ain't a Golden Retriever; also they were designed to exterminate vermin (cats, foxes etc) and be man sharp. 

I understood that GSPs were for a similar purpose... tracking stags and exterminating vermin as well as bird dogs... and am trying to think where I read it now... am I wrong then?  ???

What do you mean by hardest? Is that hard in the sense of hard to train, or hard in the sense of tough or something else?
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Sweetypye

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Re: HPRs
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2008, 03:52:53 PM »
As I said, Weims are more tracking dogs that retrieve.  GSPs usually air scent the whole time, that is why in the UK more GSPs are competed and more get higher awards, the style is preferred by many of the judges who also own GSPs.

I am not sure what GSPs originally did, but they are not as "hard" as Weims and GWPs, by that I mean tough minded, GSPs are IME a lot more compliant.

*Nick*

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Re: HPRs
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2008, 09:35:13 PM »
Dude! Great topic!  :agree:

Over here in North America we don't often use the term HPR, instead they are referred to as "versatile" breeds.

Testing and studbooks are governed and maintained by NAVHDA, North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association.
Currently NAVHDA recognizes and maintains
studbooks for the following breeds:

BI Bracco Italiano
BA Braque D’auvergne
BB Braque Du Bourbonnais
BF Braque Francais
BS Brittany
CF Cesky Fousek
DP Drentse Partridge
ES English Setter
FP French Spaniel
GL German Longhaired Pointer
GS German Shorthaired Pointer
GW German Wirehaired Pointer
GO Gordon Setter
IR Irish Red & White Setter
IS Irish Setter
LM Large Munsterlander
PT Pointer
PO Portuguese Pointer
PP Pudelpointer
SH Slovensky Hrubosrsty Stavac
SM Small Munsterlander
SP Spinone
ST Stichelhaar
VI Vizsla
WM Weimaraner
GR Wirehaired Pointing Griffon
WV Wirehaired Vizsla

This is taken from NAVHDA

Quote
"The Versatile Breeds .There are several breeds of versatile dogs common in continental Europe,
and with four exceptions, all were developed during the last decades of the 19th century. The four exceptions are much older breeds that provided a base for some of the others. These are the Weimaraner, the Vizsla, the Brittany, and its German cousin, the Small Munsterlander.
The tracking hound, pointer and waterpudel were the basic breeding stocks most widely used to develop the short and wirehaired groups. The longhaired group evolved from the Small Munsterlander and flat-coated retriever."

The testing involves hunting, pointing, tracking, blind and marked retrieves on land and water and cooperation.  Handling is kept to a minimum as the dogs must show independence and natural ability. The testing is designed to show and create proper hunting dogs, not the over-the-top style contests you see at Field trials.

And guess what?  The GSP dominates!  Why? It's simple. Everybody has one  :tease:  More GSPs are tested than any of the other breeds combined.   
Weimaraners are tested but good ones are few and far between. There's probably only a half dozen breeders in North America who actually have good Weims, the rest are what I call WWegmaraners  ;)  A number of breeders have imported and continue to import from quality Euro lines but it appears that they are being sold the worst of every litter, or else the breed just totally sucks, who knows.  I honestly couldn't tell you how a weimaraner hunts because I've never seen one show any interest in anything.

Vizslas are the next Weimaraner around here anyway. They are currently the 'trendy dog about town" a couple of years ago it was the Brittany.

much more to say, but have to make dinner....

if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch

*Nick*

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Re: HPRs
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2008, 10:07:13 PM »
just for interest sake, Sadie loves GSPs.  If we're walking the same way as one they'll run around like idiots for awhile then they both go off together to hunt, it's really great to see.
if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch

GSPmad

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Re: HPRs
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2008, 04:52:15 PM »
Dude! Great topic!  :agree:


Thanks Nick.  :)

Was wondering something else today - have other people found that HPRs\ GSPs respond better to whistle than verbal cues, and if so why would that be? Is it a selective breeding that makes the sound of the whistle of more interest to them than the sound of a voice?  :confused:
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*Nick*

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Re: HPRs
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2008, 08:47:58 PM »
I don't know if that's the case or not.   It's important to use both I think. Even if the whistle works best having the verbal and the hand signal is very useful.   I've been told that using a whistle when testing or trialing in a brace can be tricky if your bracemate is using a whistle and is a control freak...then it's useful to be able to use verbal or hand signals so the dogs aren't hearing 2 whistles
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Sweetypye

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Re: HPRs
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2008, 11:57:54 AM »
I have always used a combination of whistle, voice and hand signals as context is important, no point in using a whistle when you are right next to the dog; so for me the answer is my dogs respond equally to all forms of communication.