Author Topic: The origins and purpose of your breed  (Read 7579 times)

GSPmad

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The origins and purpose of your breed
« on: October 31, 2008, 01:57:16 PM »
I meant to post this and forgot - but admin has just reminded me - I thought a summary of creation and development of breeds and for what reason would be interesting.

The GSP:

for some reason I can't find any of the stuff I've read on origins - could have sworn I had read it on the GSPC site and in David Layton's book but anyway... you will just have to have what I have read from memory so it may be wrong, please feel free to add anything you think I've got wrong.  :D

The GSP was developed on the continent - in Germany - one of the HPR breeds - the more 'modern' gundogs - developed so one dog could do all jobs rather than having a spaniel, setter or pointer and retriever - as a sort of basic summary.

The purpose was to have a single dog suitable for a day's shoot with the lone gun... and a dog that was "a medium-sized dog, noble but sturdy, showing strength and endurance: a versatile hunter and all-purpose gundog with a very keen nose, perseverance in searching, and showing initiative in game-finding; equally good on land or in water" - to quote a q from David Layton's book.

The breed was meant to be able to hunt game, point it, then retrieve to hand tenderly dead or wounded game. It was also, if the need arose, supposed to be able to track a wounded animal such as a deer and give tongue on finding it, and also be able to despatch vermin such as foxes. Additionally the breed were used for falconry and wildfowling.

Origins... I have read conflicting opinions. One claimed the Germans were determined to create a breed with no British breed input, and it was created from continental Bloodhounds with Spanish pointer input - lighter air scenting pointers originally developed from the 'braques' or early continental pointing dogs - to make it lighter, faster and give the air-scenting ability. There was also mention of a kennel in one of the provinces of old Germany where dogs for the development came from. Others I have read have included English Pointers\ Bloodhounds in the development. I suspect there were infusions of other breeds too - but as I say doing that bit from memory and cannot for the life of me remember.  :D The breed development was 19th century I believe, when shooting was becoming more popular as a hobby.

Will get to flat coats - need to dig out Joan Mason's book first.  ;D

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GSPmad

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Re: The origins and purpose of your breed
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2008, 02:48:25 PM »
OK - flat coats - info mainly gleaned from Joan Mason's book.

From memory - flat coats were meant to be an infusion of pointers, setters (including Irish Setter - giving raciness) and other retrieving breeds.

Purpose - a dog that could retrieve game tenderly to hand. Again gundogs were needed more with the advent of better\ faster guns, and of shooting becoming more of a country pursuit/ hobby. As to the flatcoat specifically, the aim was "to breed a dog similar to the Wavy-Coated Retriever but less heavily built, with greater agility [  :D ], a more refined head [  ;D ] and a coat that would be waterproof but not so heavy and dense. In addition the dog needed to be a good game-finder" (to q Joan Mason) - ie good nose and soft mouth, with biddable temperament.

The breed development originally began I believe in the 18th C -  before this there were just 'retrieving breeds' - was a sort of mix and match, you would get wavy coated retrievers, and yellow retrievers (developed into Golden) etc in the same litter. Breeds meant to be involved in the flatcoat - the St John's\Lesser Labrador - for swimming (and boy do they like swimming  ;D ), apparently Borzoi cross has been suggested  :o and also Setter crosses for outline and possibly sheepdog crosses for responsiveness. The breed as we know it is meant to have been developed at Ettington Park by the Shirley family. Knowing what I know of the temperament of Borzois and the temperamnet of Flatties it doesn't seem very likely that the aloof sighthound who loves only family, was involved in creating the attentive everyone-loving Flatties - they are just so very different.

Inter-breeding of retrievers was quite common, according to Joan Mason - she stated the KC only rescinded this permission in 1971, and the latest 'inter-bred' registered litter she could find was Lab x Golden in 1969, though previously the most common crossing was Lab x Flattie.

Think that more or less sums it up. As I said feel free to comment\ disagree, and also add your own breed.  ;D
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GSPmad

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Re: The origins and purpose of your breed
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2008, 02:49:44 PM »
And GDBA still do retriever crosses as guide dogs - like Goldie x Flattie - only those won't be KC reg - mind you neither will the Lab x Poodles.
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rooooooooby

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Re: The origins and purpose of your breed
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2008, 04:38:45 PM »
i've got one ...

working sheepdog
--------------------------

to work on sheep  ;D

GSPmad

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Re: The origins and purpose of your breed
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2008, 04:52:17 PM »
i've got one ...

working sheepdog
--------------------------

to work on sheep  ;D

don't be silly - they were bred to stare a lot and look pretty next to sheep.  ;D ;D
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GSPmad

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Re: The origins and purpose of your breed
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2008, 02:59:02 AM »
no-one else?  :(
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Val

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Re: The origins and purpose of your breed
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2008, 01:08:50 PM »
Bearded Collies =Cattle Dogs of Scotland
Pekingese = Companions and guard dogs of the Emperor of China also known as the dog of Foo both sizes are totally fearless and will protect until death.
Val

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Re: The origins and purpose of your breed
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2008, 01:33:27 PM »
I am not best to do this - Foxy will be able to add more...

Labrador Retriever - originally bred to retrieve fish from the sea in Canada - working with fishermen... hence the webbed feet... Brought over to the UK and used to retrieve game.

I read somewhere that they were originally called Lesser Newfoundlands? Not sure if that is right and also St John retrievers?

vinya12

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Re: The origins and purpose of your breed
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2008, 03:08:02 PM »
ELKHOUND


The Norwegian Elkhound is one of the oldest inhabitants of Scandinavia. Long before he became the companion of the Vikings in both sport and conquest, the Elkhound, in much the same form as today, roamed Norway.

This magnificent breed was a fearless hunter and a devoted companion. Four skeletons found in Norway date the breed in the stone age period. These skeletons reach back from 4,000 to 5,000 B.C.

He was proficient in hunting the Moose from which he gets his name. The Elkhound name in Norwegian is Elghund which translates to Moose Dog. Elg= moose. Hund = dog in Norsk. Therefore, they are a Moosedog and in the translation to English, it became Elkhound.The dogs were also used in hunting Elk and bears. In America he has been used as a retriever hunting upland game birds. He has excelled as a farm dog in working live stock.

History assistance from Tim Hjellum

jaydex

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Re: The origins and purpose of your breed
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2008, 06:45:37 PM »
Once known as the Thueringer Pinscher or the Polizeilicher Soldatenhund, this breed was created by a German tax collector from Apolda in Thueringen who wanted a dog that would be aggressive enough to protect him while making his
rounds collecting taxes.
Various theories exist as to what breeds Louis Dobermann used to create his superbreed. In addition to be a tax collector he was alo in charge of the local animal shelter, where he had access to a wide variety of breeds. However, unlike the creator of the dogo argentino, he did not keep records of the crosses he made and there have been endless conjectures about the foundation stock of the Doberman.  What is sure is that he used not merely pure breeds, but many mongrels and crosses between different hunting dogs, terriers and shepherd dogs. The breeds that may have been added to the gene pool include the Thuringian Shepherd dog,  the German Pinscher, the black-and-tan Manchester Terrier, the black greyhound, the Beauceron, the Weimaraner, the Rottweiler, the Great Dane and the German Shorthaired Pointer.


GSPmad

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Re: The origins and purpose of your breed
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2008, 06:49:59 PM »
That's interesting, cos they have something about the face that reminds me of GSPs... think that's why I like Dobes, they have that lovely sort of face with a long nose.  ;D
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Re: The origins and purpose of your breed
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2008, 07:46:03 PM »
Both my breeds are sheep herders, the only thing Tam wants to herd is Bramble  ::)
Willow is not fit for purpose - she was scared of sheep, the first time she heard them she jumped back into the car and when we had to go through a field of them while on holiday she was only interested in what came out the back end :embarrass:


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Justine&Rafe

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Re: The origins and purpose of your breed
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2008, 05:07:08 PM »
Oooh ooh I found stuff about flatties!!

A bit late but... I thought Flatties were developed from aforementioned mixes between setters/pointers, but also from Newfoundlands - If you look at a Newfie head and a good flattie head they are incredibly similar - well, a newfie's is a bit more squishy and drooly!

If anyone wants to HAVE a flattie to experience the breed - Am considering hiring Rafe out so I can get 5 minutes' peace!  He's soooo clever - even Bev says so - and it's constantly "mum, can we do some work now please??"  "Mum, can we play now?"  "mum, I've eaten my tennis ball can you get me another?"  "mum, I think I'd like some of what you're doing"  "mum, what ARE you doing??"

But I love him!!

SuzAndTheDiva

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Re: The origins and purpose of your breed
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2008, 08:17:48 PM »
psyche I didnt realise you had a flatcoat! I love them, the one I know is just the happiest dog ever - is always good in the world for her  :yes:


Justine&Rafe

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Re: The origins and purpose of your breed
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2008, 12:01:42 PM »
Suz, you'll have to ask Bev, she has met him - and had the all-over-licking which is the flattie greeting!

He is Hard Work, but that's because he's rediculously bright for a flattie, and if you ever needed a dog to lift your spirits, he's your boy!

There's a good reason they're known as the Peter Pan of the dog world!

I love him!!