Author Topic: German Shepherd  (Read 39471 times)

Val

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #105 on: August 24, 2008, 06:15:46 PM »
Hallo and Welcome
Don't think you will get any flak on this board there are many many posts on GSD's the most posted heated words are on colour not type
Val

Sweetypye

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #106 on: August 25, 2008, 12:29:18 PM »
My dog is all German breeding and does NOT have a roach back mainly because he is from WORKING stock rather than SHOWING stock, yet he still managed a Class 1 Breed Survey.

To say all German stock are deformed is as unwise as saying the same about English.

A good dog is a good dog.

As my dog is required to go over a 6ft scale, retrieve over an A frame and 1metre high hurdle and jump 9ft long I doubt a roach back would last very long!


PhiltheBear

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #107 on: August 28, 2008, 04:09:17 PM »
My dog is all German breeding and does NOT have a roach back mainly because he is from WORKING stock rather than SHOWING stock, yet he still managed a Class 1 Breed Survey.

To say all German stock are deformed is as unwise as saying the same about English.

A good dog is a good dog.

As my dog is required to go over a 6ft scale, retrieve over an A frame and 1metre high hurdle and jump 9ft long I doubt a roach back would last very long!

I wouldn't even begin to say that all German(ic) dogs have a roach back. My point was this - there is a definite judging 'swing' to what the GSD world in general refers to as German dogs. If you looked at the GSDs at Crufts last year - which is a reasonable reflecting of a year's judging - almost all were German type dogs. The vast majority of those dogs (and this may well not include yours) are being bred to reflect current judging, so it becomes a self reinforcing situation. However, as a matter of fact - not opinion - an awful lot of the German 'type' of dogs do not measure up to the published breed standard. Time and again I see show winners where the back and rear legs are almost in a straight line.

Quite simply it's wrong. It's wrong because it doesn't agree with the breed standard and it's wrong because it can only lead to breeding in hip faults. The hip cavity on a dog doesn't lie directly on top of the head of the femur - it lies to the side. If a dog's leg is stretched behind his hip then there is a tendency for it to roll outwards from the cavity. That's a matter of simple physics and biology. And is why that 'half dog, half frog' epithet has been applied.

So this introduces the ludicrous situation where - on the one hand breeders try and produce pups that will win certificates because breeding from Champions means they will sell more pups at a higher value (and, in the process, stroke their own egos by collecting rosettes) and on the other hand they are attempting to lower hip scores - an impossibility if they breed to 'fashion' rather than the standard.

What I fail to understand is how it is possible for a judge to continue in place when they are obviously awarding higher marks for non-conforming animals. Is this because, as in the GCCF for cats, once a judge is in place they are no longer checked?

As I said, I'm new to the show world of GSDs but I have taken an interest in this over the past 4 or 5 years with increasing bewilderment that such an obvious fault is being rewarded again and again in the show ring. Is there anyone who can explain why?

Sweetypye

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #108 on: August 28, 2008, 04:29:00 PM »
Because in the UK many breed for looks rather than function unlike abroad where the dog must pass health tests, working tests, suitability for breeding tests.


PhiltheBear

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #109 on: August 28, 2008, 05:03:28 PM »
Is this simply because we don't have the "European Convention for the Protection of Pet Animals" implemented here? Or is it deliberate on the part of breeders?

Sweetypye

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #110 on: August 28, 2008, 05:18:02 PM »
The majority of GSD breeders in the UK are aiming at the show or pet market.  Most of these homes do not want to compete with their dog in Working Trials or Schutzhund.  To be good at these sports the dog must usually posess a level of drive that would not be suitable for the show or pet home.

So hence the division, same as in Labradors, Cocker Spaniels, Springer Spaniels etc.

PhiltheBear

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #111 on: August 28, 2008, 05:35:55 PM »
The majority of GSD breeders in the UK are aiming at the show or pet market.  Most of these homes do not want to compete with their dog in Working Trials or Schutzhund.  To be good at these sports the dog must usually posess a level of drive that would not be suitable for the show or pet home.

So hence the division, same as in Labradors, Cocker Spaniels, Springer Spaniels etc.

I'm sorry but your reply seems nonsensical to me. Either you want a healthy dog or you don't. I don't see anything in the European legislation which implies that a test of dog health would set apart a show dog from a working dog. If you are saying that breeding for show implies the dog isn't going to be healthy then that is absolutely horrendous. What possible justification can there be for genetically engineering a dog in such a way that some human thinks it looks good when the effect on the dog may be to condemn it to many years of pain?

Or perhaps I've misunderstood the point you were making.

Sweetypye

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #112 on: August 28, 2008, 05:49:40 PM »
In the UK it is not a requirement that anyone has to breed from sound stock.

Screening for HD, ED, Haemophilia and eye screening are not mandatory.

Therefore anyone can breed from anything.

there IS no justification for breeding from un health tested stock nor from stock who have not proved their soundness by undergoing tests such as the AD, Schutzhund, ZTP etc etc.

Unfortunately this does not prevent people with no knowledge breeding from stock that should not be bred from who are either physically, emotionally or mentally unfit.

Val

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #113 on: August 28, 2008, 06:10:41 PM »
You may say you are new to the breed but what you write is music to my ears  :agree: :agree: :agree:
As on many topic I have said the faults with the dogs lay in the hands of the judges but to hear a novice write what most hardened breeders do not have the b*lls to write gives me hope for the future
Val

I wouldn't even begin to say that all German(ic) dogs have a roach back. My point was this - there is a definite judging 'swing' to what the GSD world in general refers to as German dogs. If you looked at the GSDs at Crufts last year - which is a reasonable reflecting of a year's judging - almost all were German type dogs. The vast majority of those dogs (and this may well not include yours) are being bred to reflect current judging, so it becomes a self reinforcing situation. However, as a matter of fact - not opinion - an awful lot of the German 'type' of dogs do not measure up to the published breed standard. Time and again I see show winners where the back and rear legs are almost in a straight line.

Quite simply it's wrong. It's wrong because it doesn't agree with the breed standard and it's wrong because it can only lead to breeding in hip faults. The hip cavity on a dog doesn't lie directly on top of the head of the femur - it lies to the side. If a dog's leg is stretched behind his hip then there is a tendency for it to roll outwards from the cavity. That's a matter of simple physics and biology. And is why that 'half dog, half frog' epithet has been applied.

So this introduces the ludicrous situation where - on the one hand breeders try and produce pups that will win certificates because breeding from Champions means they will sell more pups at a higher value (and, in the process, stroke their own egos by collecting rosettes) and on the other hand they are attempting to lower hip scores - an impossibility if they breed to 'fashion' rather than the standard.

What I fail to understand is how it is possible for a judge to continue in place when they are obviously awarding higher marks for non-conforming animals. Is this because, as in the GCCF for cats, once a judge is in place they are no longer checked?

As I said, I'm new to the show world of GSDs but I have taken an interest in this over the past 4 or 5 years with increasing bewilderment that such an obvious fault is being rewarded again and again in the show ring. Is there anyone who can explain why?
[/quote]

Val

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #114 on: August 28, 2008, 06:14:55 PM »
I  :agree:SP thats why I think there should be a two tire registeration at the KC A. for all health tested B. for the non health tested only A can be bred on and shown or something like that
What do others think
Val


In the UK it is not a requirement that anyone has to breed from sound stock.

Screening for HD, ED, Haemophilia and eye screening are not mandatory.

Therefore anyone can breed from anything.

there IS no justification for breeding from un health tested stock nor from stock who have not proved their soundness by undergoing tests such as the AD, Schutzhund, ZTP etc etc.

Unfortunately this does not prevent people with no knowledge breeding from stock that should not be bred from who are either physically, emotionally or mentally unfit.

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #115 on: August 28, 2008, 09:18:43 PM »
I  :agree:SP thats why I think there should be a two tire registeration at the KC A. for all health tested B. for the non health tested only A can be bred on and shown or something like that
What do others think
Val

I agree Val and Hi and welcome to PhiltheBear , you post makes a lot of sense unfortunately that the one thing you don't need to be in charge of the KC ::)


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PhiltheBear

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #116 on: August 29, 2008, 10:45:44 AM »
:agree: SP thats why I think there should be a two tire registeration at the KC A. for all health tested B. for the non health tested only A can be bred on and shown or something like that
What do others think
Val




There's a difficulty with the whole question of 'health testing' though. Our (ex) GSD had a perfectly acceptable hip score. She had a great 'championship' pedigree. She was, to all intents and purposes, a perfect breeding bitch but we kept her as a pet not a show dog. At the age of about 3-4 she started to show discomfort in the lower back. This was diagnosed as spondylitis - in her case calcification of the spine which, over the next 4-5 years, turned a flexible spine into a solid lump of bone. It was a manageable condition but it's an apparently more and more common one in GSDs. It wouldn't have shown at an 18 month health check and we are pleased that we didn't breed from her because it is possible to pass this on to offspring. Yet there is, as far as we could discover, no history of it at all going back 4 generations in the bloodline.

Therefore, although I think a one-off health check is valuable I don't think it's the sole answer. I'd also include a veterinary certificate that the parent dog (of either sex) conforms to the published breed standard and that, in the opinion of the vet, there are no apparent health impairing characteristics shown in the dog. That vet certificate would have to be dated within 6 months of the mating (if prior) and within 2 months if after. It would mean that both bitch and dog owners can check out the health of the mating partner and anyone getting a puppy would have the right to see those 'health certificates'. To those who say that vets aren't breed judges I'd say that you don't have to be a judge in order to see if a dog conforms to a standard - it's a checklist which a vet ought to be able to readily interpret.

In order to be a recognised breeder under the KC programme breeders would have to agree to this. It's simple and it ought to be effective - although not foolproof. At present anyone can be a breeder. I can - and I don't even have a dog! (But it's born and I have seen it!! - only 8 weeks to go).

PtB

Val

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #117 on: August 29, 2008, 11:26:24 AM »
nteresting thread, I do not think you would ever get the vets on side as they have yet to work out what goes down a dogs throat is what shows on the skin  ::).
I fully understand your point about spondylitis my daughter had a GSD with this heart breaking condition he was 10 when it started and sent over the bridge before he was 11.
I think the point is the breeders have to research these problems, we have a similar problem in beardies with AI diseases, nowhere near as bad as yours in the GSD but we started a database in the States via Beacon Health to at least track the lines that were producing stock that was affected they also carry databases for the PWD, and the poodle all three are affected and a lot of AI conditions do not show up until after breeding age considering most beardie people rarely breed before 4 years of age we thought this was the best path to take as it would be pointless throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Beacon keeps a database of all the beardies living and dead and what they died from.

But and it's a big But we have to make people do these things some test anyway for everything they can, others just don't bother these are the breeders that have to be made to test.
In my own small way by having a beardie database I can see what lines produce thyroids etc, what we need is the backing of the KC.
In an ideal world my answer would be no health checks no registering of pups that was we would know that a registered animal IS health checked.
A two tire works in the cat world with the GCCF why not with dogs, granted the cat world doesn't have there head office in the most expensive block in the UK, (that's another topic) 
In my other breed we have the KC saying we have heart problems which is rubbish, but they have to find something to keep Europe happy with the flat faced breeds, at the moment  peke clubs have a vet at the shows and they are being heart tested so far nothing  ::) this is costing clubs a lot of money but at the end at least we will have the proof that the pekingese are hardy little dogs, it's rare to find one with SP or hernia's these days and since the standard was changed to large head instead of massive the rate of caesarian births is dropping they have never had AI problems (touch wood)so compared to other breeds they are healthy, I am much more worried about the beardies than the pekes but the KC doesn't recognize any health checks on them apart from hips.
I do hope that programme has given the KC food for thought but I have to say I do not think they will give up all those registration  fee's lightly and some breeders will not put their hand in the pocket to pay for testing.
Val

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #118 on: August 29, 2008, 11:48:18 AM »
Any breed can develop practically any health condition as can humans despite rigourous health screening, it is no guarantee, and some conditions there are no checks for.

there is no need to involve vets, we do not need to reinvent the wheel, we just need to adopt the same system as in Germany.

Mandatory HD, ED, blood and Eye screening, Koerung (ie recommended for breeding or suitable for breeding), dog must obtain a SchH1 qualifiication as a minimum or, in the UK for those who do not want to do protection a UDex, an AD to demonstrate stamina and endurance.

We already have the GSD Breed Survey available in the UK however not many people have their dogs surveyed, for a Class 1 you need to have suitable Hip scores and complete dentition etc  etc.

So there is no need to get something NEW just make what exists mandatory.

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #119 on: August 29, 2008, 11:57:10 AM »
yes i agree :happy:

one thing i have a promblem dealing with is that there are some shepherds out there who have the roach back but yet have extrememly low hips scores, 0-0 elbows, JRD tested clear, SchH1-3, as well as being haemophilia clear. Shouldn't these be the types of dogs we should be breeding from if we are breeding for health, temperment and looks?