Author Topic: German Shepherd  (Read 39561 times)

Val

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #120 on: August 29, 2008, 11:59:28 AM »
Sorry SP you know this is not my breed but I have to say if the dog that won Crufts is a shining example of a German bred dog then they have not got it right either, and no I am not just picking up on the press that dogs had, I watched the class he has a head to die for an excellent front and a backend thats a disaster and no I do not need again to hear what he has won the dog could not stand with a good outline unaided it had to be placed even then it's backside was nearly on the floor
Val


Any breed can develop practically any health condition as can humans despite rigourous health screening, it is no guarantee, and some conditions there are no checks for.

there is no need to involve vets, we do not need to reinvent the wheel, we just need to adopt the same system as in Germany.

Mandatory HD, ED, blood and Eye screening, Koerung (ie recommended for breeding or suitable for breeding), dog must obtain a SchH1 qualifiication as a minimum or, in the UK for those who do not want to do protection a UDex, an AD to demonstrate stamina and endurance.

We already have the GSD Breed Survey available in the UK however not many people have their dogs surveyed, for a Class 1 you need to have suitable Hip scores and complete dentition etc  etc.

So there is no need to get something NEW just make what exists mandatory.

Val

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #121 on: August 29, 2008, 12:03:06 PM »
A roach bad has not meaning in relation to hip scores but a steep descend of the spine does make a difference to hips as Chewy has already stated 

yes i agree :happy:

one thing i have a promblem dealing with is that there are some shepherds out there who have the roach back but yet have extrememly low hips scores, 0-0 elbows, JRD tested clear, SchH1-3, as well as being haemophilia clear. Shouldn't these be the types of dogs we should be breeding from if we are breeding for health, temperment and looks?

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #122 on: August 29, 2008, 12:10:49 PM »
so if the steep descend of the roach backs effects a dogs hips do this only happen with time or is it always there. So if you had the same dog but with a slightly sloping back and he was hip scored at the same age would it's hip score be better since it hasn't got the higher back or would it be the same as it was with the higher back. If they are the same would it be that the dog with the roach back would later on in life may have problems with hip/spine whereas the dog with the sloping back would be generally fine for life??? sorry don't know if you understood a word of that :-\

PhiltheBear

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #123 on: August 29, 2008, 01:20:08 PM »
Any breed can develop practically any health condition as can humans despite rigourous health screening, it is no guarantee, and some conditions there are no checks for.

there is no need to involve vets, we do not need to reinvent the wheel, we just need to adopt the same system as in Germany.

Mandatory HD, ED, blood and Eye screening, Koerung (ie recommended for breeding or suitable for breeding), dog must obtain a SchH1 qualifiication as a minimum or, in the UK for those who do not want to do protection a UDex, an AD to demonstrate stamina and endurance.

We already have the GSD Breed Survey available in the UK however not many people have their dogs surveyed, for a Class 1 you need to have suitable Hip scores and complete dentition etc  etc.

So there is no need to get something NEW just make what exists mandatory.

I respectfully disagree. The position you are elucidating implies that a) there should be no external verification (I chose vets as independent, highly qualified, people with animal health as priority) and b) that all dogs must obtain a Schutzhund qualification which has even less meaning than a health screening.

Frankly, given the standard of judging that I've seen there exists inside the GSD fraternity (in showing in particular) so much vested interest that I simply wouldn't trust any existing GSD organisation. The same, I'm equally sure, applies to other breeds. The KC pays lip service to the idea of healthy dogs and has the power to do something but doesn't. If the KC said - if you want to register your dogs as pedigree you must follow certain rules and those rules must be independently verified - then breeders would do it. Yes, there would be a lot of people who'd jump up and down and scream and shout because they weren't getting their own way but they would fall into line - because if they didn't they'd find themselves usurped.

It's due to the current set up of clubs and affiliations to the KC that these health problems exist so putting the prisoners in charge of the jail really isn't a good idea at all.

In regard to the 'roach' back argument - each dog is different in their physical make up and each dog's individual hip score doesn't necessarily reflect the majority of dogs with the same apparent physique. However, as I've stated before, as a matter of elementary physics and given the 'normal' physiology of a dog's hip joint it is far more likely that hip dysplasia will be more prevalent in dogs where the back and legs tend towards a straight line. If a dog has an abnormal hip joint that negates the problem for himself it does not imply that his offspring will be as fortunate. (And he would have to have an abnormal hip joint in this context).

Sweetypye

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #124 on: August 29, 2008, 01:26:27 PM »
No external verification?

what is your criteria for external verification?

Why is it restricted to vets?

Schutzhund qualifications DO have meaning as they were evolved to determine suitability for breeding that is how it came about, as a test to ensure only those dogs which reflected the SV standard in both physique and temperament were bred from!

There is a saying I heard a long time ago, if you can't take a joke do not play the game.

So the option for people like yourself is very simple, do not buy a GSD, do not breed and do not show or participate in any other GSD based discipiine; that way you will never be disappointed in your dog, the system, the judge etc etc etc.

I think change comes from within rather than without and that those of us who own, train, work and breed what we consider healthy stock that are capable of carrying out a variety of functions will continue to demonstrate by results.

We often find that the best bred and trained dogs remain at home!  ;) :D

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #125 on: August 29, 2008, 01:37:06 PM »
Any breed can develop practically any health condition as can humans despite rigourous health screening, it is no guarantee, and some conditions there are no checks for.

there is no need to involve vets, we do not need to reinvent the wheel, we just need to adopt the same system as in Germany.

Mandatory HD, ED, blood and Eye screening, Koerung (ie recommended for breeding or suitable for breeding), dog must obtain a SchH1 qualifiication as a minimum or, in the UK for those who do not want to do protection a UDex, an AD to demonstrate stamina and endurance.

We already have the GSD Breed Survey available in the UK however not many people have their dogs surveyed, for a Class 1 you need to have suitable Hip scores and complete dentition etc  etc.

So there is no need to get something NEW just make what exists mandatory.

I respectfully disagree. The position you are elucidating implies that a) there should be no external verification (I chose vets as independent, highly qualified, people with animal health as priority) and b) that all dogs must obtain a Schutzhund qualification which has even less meaning than a health screening.

Frankly, given the standard of judging that I've seen there exists inside the GSD fraternity (in showing in particular) so much vested interest that I simply wouldn't trust any existing GSD organisation. The same, I'm equally sure, applies to other breeds. The KC pays lip service to the idea of healthy dogs and has the power to do something but doesn't. If the KC said - if you want to register your dogs as pedigree you must follow certain rules and those rules must be independently verified - then breeders would do it. Yes, there would be a lot of people who'd jump up and down and scream and shout because they weren't getting their own way but they would fall into line - because if they didn't they'd find themselves usurped.

It's due to the current set up of clubs and affiliations to the KC that these health problems exist so putting the prisoners in charge of the jail really isn't a good idea at all.

In regard to the 'roach' back argument - each dog is different in their physical make up and each dog's individual hip score doesn't necessarily reflect the majority of dogs with the same apparent physique. However, as I've stated before, as a matter of elementary physics and given the 'normal' physiology of a dog's hip joint it is far more likely that hip dysplasia will be more prevalent in dogs where the back and legs tend towards a straight line. If a dog has an abnormal hip joint that negates the problem for himself it does not imply that his offspring will be as fortunate. (And he would have to have an abnormal hip joint in this context).

a Schutzhund qualification is important. It proves that the dog is well balanced in both temperment and working abilities something that should be valued greatly. How many shepherds do you see out there who are overly agressive or would run from danger instead of protect you from it. The personality (loyal, protective, driven ect) are just as important as it's looks and health. They are what make the german shepherd a german shepherd and schutzhund qualifications prove that it can do what it was bred to do.
(I chose vets as independent, highly qualified, people with animal health as priority
The whole vet comment is crap in my eyes - these are the same people who recommend feeding your dog crap just to make their pockets all the more richer! Granted this is not all vets but lets just say there are very few out there.

Val

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #126 on: August 29, 2008, 02:27:42 PM »
Is what you are saying 'I am alright Jack' don't really care about the other or have I miss understood SP
If this is true there is no way you can demonstrate by results some people have to be made too test and breed from the best.
And in the case of the GSD it's a lot of people.
Chewy
I must now respectfully disagree I would not chose a vet I would chose a specialist in the field of  :whatever: the problem, a lot of vets are not qualified in specialist complaints they are also in the main very money minded, stick around this board long enough you will see for yourself most owners struggle with vets and vets struggle with dogs because the number one priority is to make money.
Val

I chose vets as independent, highly qualified, people with animal health as priority.

Val


I think change comes from within rather than without and that those of us who own, train, work and breed what we consider healthy stock that are capable of carrying out a variety of functions will continue to demonstrate by results.

We often find that the best bred and trained dogs remain at home!

Sweetypye

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #127 on: August 29, 2008, 02:33:26 PM »
I care about good breeding practices, I cannot comment on Zamp as I did not see him and my posts do not merely refer to the GSD.

Dogs that fulfil their function must come from health tested stock which have proved their ability to fulfil their function via various methods whether sport or on the job.

those that have trouble free healthy lives and do not breakdown are testament to good practice.

consistent good results have their foundations based on best practice rather than luck.

I am fortunate I have an excellent GSD that comes from generations of health tested and performance tested dogs.  Unfortunately the majority of UK bred dogs cannot say that as even if they HAVE been health tested they have not proved themselves on the field so to speak


PhiltheBear

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #128 on: August 29, 2008, 02:56:03 PM »
a Schutzhund qualification is important. It proves that the dog is well balanced in both temperment and working abilities something that should be valued greatly. How many shepherds do you see out there who are overly agressive or would run from danger instead of protect you from it. The personality (loyal, protective, driven ect) are just as important as it's looks and health. They are what make the german shepherd a german shepherd and schutzhund qualifications prove that it can do what it was bred to do.
(I chose vets as independent, highly qualified, people with animal health as priority
The whole vet comment is crap in my eyes - these are the same people who recommend feeding your dog crap just to make their pockets all the more richer! Granted this is not all vets but lets just say there are very few out there.

Actually the Schutzhund qualification doesn't do that at all. It shows that the dog passed those tests at the time of taking the text - including things that the owner may have no interest in whatsoever in pursuing with their dog. There are thousands of GSDs that don't "work". Does that make them 'bad' dogs? Of course not. Should GSDs only be owned if they are going to be used as shepherds? That's a dumb argument. They are intelligent dogs who can be trained in a variety of ways - not only as shepherds. (Arguably border collies make better shepherd dogs than GSDs - but that's a whole other debate).

Personally I'm much more interested in dog temperament and health than looks but I sure as hell wouldn't trust a Schutzhund test to prove it to me. Indeed, my new puppy was booked solely on the basis of the temperament of the parents (OK, they happen to be Champions too but it's a secondary consideration). The other factor that I considered was looks - but in regard to health problems. That's why we chose an 'English' type and not a 'German'.

Your remark about vets shows a degree of ignorance that is astounding. It is a requirement of vets that they have to give professional advice. If you find a vet who gives feeding advice based on a desire to line their own pockets then report them. They'll very soon stop. My vet is a specialist in natural nutrition (amongst other things) and we've been through a whole load of stuff with her about what one should and shouldn't feed. I'm in the process at present of setting up a website about Natural Foods for animals because there is so much ignorance and prejudice in that area, although it's often well-meaning.

Quote
No external verification?

what is your criteria for external verification?

Why is it restricted to vets?

Schutzhund qualifications DO have meaning as they were evolved to determine suitability for breeding that is how it came about, as a test to ensure only those dogs which reflected the SV standard in both physique and temperament were bred from!

There is a saying I heard a long time ago, if you can't take a joke do not play the game.

So the option for people like yourself is very simple, do not buy a GSD, do not breed and do not show or participate in any other GSD based discipiine; that way you will never be disappointed in your dog, the system, the judge etc etc etc.

I think change comes from within rather than without and that those of us who own, train, work and breed what we consider healthy stock that are capable of carrying out a variety of functions will continue to demonstrate by results.

We often find that the best bred and trained dogs remain at home!

I quote vets because they are independent. They don't have the vested interest that breeders have in perpetuating their own current 'style' of dog. Who would you chose? Breeders? That would be the very people who try and perpetuate the same atrocities.

You may think that change comes from within. In which case - where is it? I don't see any. Tell me what's changed by your efforts 'from within'.

I'm in close contact with 2 breeders - between them over 70 years of GSD experience. Both ridicule the current standard of judging - and yet they have bred champion dogs. My other half has kept/lived with GSDs all her life - 54 years of it. She spent many working years in charge of GSDs for the southern area of one of the big security firms. I doubt if you could tell the three of them much about GSDs.

All are appalled at what the breed has become with physical problems apparently bred in to the breed rather than trying to breed them out. What can they do to change this? Nothing. Not a thing. And the reason is that the structure of the KC is such that individuals are powerless.

There is NO evidence that the KC have made any changes which benefit GSD health - although there's plenty of lip-service. But perhaps you could show me some? You quoted the GSD Breed Survey. The GSD breed survey suffers in exactly the same way in that it is impossible for individuals to be represented - it's run by an overall organisation, comprised of the same clubs that want to perpetuate the status quo. And, as I'm sure you are aware, anyone can register to be a breeder under that scheme - even me - without a dog. Where's the control? Oh, sorry, there isn't any!

Schutzhund qualifications are fine if you are wanting to limit GSDs to be purely working dogs. Even then there are aspects of the test which aren't relevant to all types of work. But the vast majority of GSDs aren't working dogs at all - and there's no reason why they should be.

And people 'like myself' care about dogs and want to do something about making sure that health problems aren't bred in. I'm sure it's not the case but the tone of your post implies the opposite about you.

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #129 on: August 29, 2008, 03:09:12 PM »
my only input in this debate...vets...diets...dont make me laugh... :what:

they get a couple of lectures...they get to choose an animal for a marked assignment..........are you serious....so from your point of view then they learn every diet suitable for animal a ...z.. antelope to zebra...rather un- realistic is that not? ....vets are good at what they do...they good at surgery and diagnostics and repair ...it what a vets does....no ...you are wrong..they have not had that education unless they have specialised....and the products that vet surgery outlets sell.??... it on commission...it a pay back for bursary funding...and most vets will go that route because they do not have the indepent dog gut system knowledge or because they are employed by a practice...most vets tell folk dont feed bones...most vets say the allergy is due to xyz in diet here have a can of this and feed it for life...

please...i can accept most of your argument but diets..... nahhhh...you in the land of the blind... :)

Sweetypye

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #130 on: August 29, 2008, 03:20:01 PM »
I do not remember anyone posting that dogs that do not work are bad?

Perhaps you can point that out.

What I posted was that the Schutzhund scheme evolved as a suitability for breeding programme.  This is a fact.  Whether or not you wish to participate in the sport or not is irrelevant.

Again I can recall no post which said that GSDs should only be used for shepherding, again perhaps you can point that out.

As for Border Collies being a better shepherd dog than the GSD this demonstrates your ignorance of the roles each breed play.

They do not have the same job.

Border collies are used to herd and round up sheep and cut some out.  GSDs were designed as a living fence.  The two jobs are not interchangeable.

GSD are the dogs of choice for general purpose dogs for the police, have been used as Assistance Dogs, Guide Dogs, sniffer dogs, as well as in agility, schutzhund, working trials and obedience of course. Not to mention PAT dogs.

A schutzhund test in and of itself does not demonstrate temperament but the temperament testing that is part of the whole system and is continuous throughout the test IS.  That is one of the pluses of the schutzhund system it is NOT a one off test, good temperament must be exhibited throughout the tracking obedience and protection as well as the preliminary tattoo/chip testing.

This starts from clubs only accepting good temperament dogs for training, the BH and right through each and every test from SchH1/2/3 and the FH tests etc.

I do not have a degree of ignorance about vets, apart from specialists many vets know little about breeds or construction and very few have any idea about nutrition.

If yours DOES have specialist nutrition knowledge he or she is in the minority.

Many of us DO have specialiist nutrition knowledge and training and feed accordingly, hence why so many of us feed raw.

Again you are displaying ignorance of the Breed Survey scheme and confusing it with the Accredited Breeder Scheme, apparently there is a lot some of us can tell you about GSD!
As far as LIMITING GSD to schutzhund or working, I am not sure how you came to that conclusion, for most of us our dogs are pets first and they can participate and sometimes excel in other areas be that showing, Pets As Therapy, Working Trials, Schutzhund, Herding, Obedience, HWTM etc etc etc

Everyone is entitled to their opinions however uninformed, I would strongly suggest that you gain some more knowledge from those sources who apparently know it all but still have yet to communicate certain things to you accurately, or if this is not the case, perhaps you ought to verify your understanding.

When English Bred Alsatians prove their worth in the working field, perhaps those of us who have chosen dogs that have generations of health testing, endurance testing, nosework testing, breed suitability tests and litter after litter of sound stock may follow your example.

You won't find many of them in the security business either, at least ones that can do the job!  Same applies to the MoD, police and prison services.

We know the breeding behind these, apart from gift dogs of course!
I care passionately about the heatlh of my dogs that is why I bought from stock that has been elbow scored, hip scored, eye screened and haemophilia tested, passed Breed Surveys and/or Koerung 1/2, and achieved huge success in the competition field.

This is probably why MY dog has a 0:0 elbows, 5:3 hips, haemophilia free, current clear eye certificate, Breed Survey Class 1, Graded G at the Sieger, CDex UDex WDex AD and SchH2; oh and he is a fantastic pet too!  :ok:

Sweetypye

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #131 on: August 29, 2008, 03:23:45 PM »
I am sure all of us look forward to your site about natural feeding no doubt it will surpass anything that already exists on any of the British, or international forums  :blindfold:

I am sure we can benefit from your skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience in this matter, pray where did you study and get your nutrition qualifications from?

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #132 on: August 29, 2008, 03:25:45 PM »
Actually the Schutzhund qualification doesn't do that at all. It shows that the dog passed those tests at the time of taking the text - including things that the owner may have no interest in whatsoever in pursuing with their dog. There are thousands of GSDs that don't "work". Does that make them 'bad' dogs? Of course not. Should GSDs only be owned if they are going to be used as shepherds? That's a dumb argument. They are intelligent dogs who can be trained in a variety of ways - not only as shepherds. (Arguably border collies make better shepherd dogs than GSDs - but that's a whole other debate).
how does the schutzhund qualification not prove that a shepherd is true to the breed. The KC states that a shepherd's temperment should be 'Steady of nerve, loyal, self-assured, courageous and tractable. Never nervous, over-aggressive or shy' by a dog getting a SchH qualification it's proving that it can be protective, loyal, self-assured, courageous and tractable! The kc also state that the breed characteristics should be 'Versatile working dog, balanced and free from exaggeration. Attentive, alert, resilient and tireless with keen scenting ability.' can you explain why a schutzhund qualification doesn't show that a dog is true to the breed standard??

Sweetypye

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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #133 on: August 29, 2008, 03:30:41 PM »
She spent many working years in charge of GSDs for the southern area of one of the big security firms.

Which one, perhaps I may know her as I know many of the BIG security firms as well as the small ones including the trainers/owners and directors.

What was she in charge of exactly?

The breeding programme, stud/brood bitch selection, training, testing, buying?

Did she deal with static or mobile patrols?

Guarding or drug and bomb dogs?


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Re: German Shepherd
« Reply #134 on: August 29, 2008, 03:33:00 PM »
I consider myself reasonably intelligent, and I'm reading this thread with great interest, but I'll be damned if I can figure out who's for and against what here!  :surrender:  :canadian:

all I can say is this...if function isn't there how can a dog be the right form?  A breed's looks should be determined by the form it takes when it does and can perform its 'job' at the highest level.

So I think  that in the case of GSDs a quality shutzhund dog would be, to me, the epitome of the breed.  just like a champion spring trialer would be the epitome of the Picardy.

Has that already been said  :help:

 :D

anyway this thread has the distinct danger of getting nasty really quickly so I'd ask that everyone keep perspective because I want to read more and don't want this thread to get locked  :agree:
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