Deaf Snowy White JRT (Curly coat) on death row…

Home Main Forums Dogs Where can I find ……? Deaf Snowy White JRT (Curly coat) on death row…

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  • #61705
    vixc
    Member

    Can anyone help….
    I am a trainer and behaviourist in Sheffield. (APDT 302) I was consulted yesterday by a couple with 9 year old daughter who own a 7 month old pure white, curly Coated, Parsons JRT. (neutered)  This pup has bitten the daughter on the lip when she woke him from a deep sleep. the mother told the child to wake the dog which she did by bending over him and stroking his back…. result he woke, statled and lunged at her, catchinhg her on the lip.(  ??? go figure!)

    I thoroughly assesed the dog last night.  He is VERY defensive in his home.  Espeicially on waking. And even lunged at me after a light snooze at my feet.  He also resource guards beds, and the sofa. Turns out, that the owners did not know the dog was deaf till about 4 months of age, by which point, i believe but they wont confirm, that quite a bit of harsh handling had been used combined with spoiling him rotten the rest of the time. 
    The Dad had hauled the pup out from under the bed by his back leg, and had shifted him forcibly from their bed, when he was in a deep sleep.  So now he is wary upon waking and is very wary of the man.  He is sociable with other dogs on walks etc, but challenging towards them in the house.  He competes for toys and food.  He is basically a bundle of contradictions and complications….
    BUT, he is also sweet, willing to learn, responding to sign language, gentle,and  not an outright aggresive dog, very young, very cute and looks like Snowy from Tin Tin.

    I’ve had him at mine over night to observe and give the owners a break. ( The woman was hysterical and the man threatening to kill the dog!)    >:(  My only options so far are to have him put to sleep or to try the Dogs Trust at Leeds. I think they are the only rescue centre bar Battersea that will work with the dog and try to iron out the problems.  i’ve sent please out via my colleagues at the APDT and any other dog contact I know, Inc Barry Eaton, world renounded Deaf Dog trainer. 

    if ANYONE at all can help,please get in touch urgently. This puppy has only got 24 hours before a decision has to be made.  He can’t stop here as I have a young grandchild, as well as my elderly dogs to consider. I cannot keep him caged indefinitely and have a small house.
    I’ve tried my best, but dont have an immediate magic wand.

    Can anyone help…?
    Victoria Cooper
    http://www.peopleanddogs.co.uk
    Sheffield  – 01142 747665

    #76173
    Anonymous
    Guest

    If you are a trainer then you must know you could be found liable knowing this dog bites if it bites it’s hoped for new owner.
    Val

    #76174
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Hi,

    Battersea – Dont even take *their own* dogs back from known aggression except to kill them so that one is OUT.

    I dunno about DT but there are tons of other rescues which take deaf dogs, and a few that take aggressive dogs too.

    Its obvious (to me) these people never wanted a trainer – they wanted shot of their dog immediately without the guilt of pts.  They must think all their xmas come at once.  My dear – take some good advice, you want a pts clause in your contract, walk away if its this obvious you cant save them all and rescues are jam packed as it is without an aggressive deaf dog.

    Why cant you re-mod this pup then ?  You are supposed to be a behaviourist !!!

    What qualifications do you actually have in training and behaviour (any muppet can be APDT – i know some awful members) ??

    Claire.

    #76175
    Anonymous
    Guest

    OK – now i’ve breathed a few times without simmering ….

    Have you got insurance against claims from aggressive dogs – if not I suggest you get some ASAP if you are taking on clients like this.

    Val – i know of the law but not quite sure how it works, if the trainer hands the dog back to its proper owners and the contract is ended so the dog is no longer a client, is the liability still there should it bite again? 

    if so, the safest route would be to have the dog signed legally over to you, do the re-modification and look for a new owner for the dog who will come on board as a client of yours and who is prepared to work with you.  a second option could be to find a close by rescue who are willing to kennel the dog while you work with him and assist with his re-homing.

    you also need to take note of the tricks people play to get rid of dogs they dont want without the guilt of killing them and also that you cant rely on rescues who are already over stretched to bail you out in 24 bl**dy hours !!!

    starting to crackle again … must be off or i’ll be in trouble !

    Claire x

    #76176
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Bev would be the best person as she has this type of cover I don’t think it would apply with the original owner as she knows it bites, but if vixc was to pass it on and it bite she could be sued and she would lose
    Val

    #76177
    Anonymous
    Guest

    if ANYONE at all can help,please get in touch urgently. This puppy has only got 24 hours before a decision has to be made.   He can’t stop here as I have a young grandchild, as well as my elderly dogs to consider. I cannot keep him caged indefinitely and have a small house.
    I’ve tried my best, but dont have an immediate magic wand.

    No one has an immediate magic wand, one night observing him and you’ve made up your mind already that you cant (or dont want to) help him and want to pass him on, bit of a ‘not my problem’ attitude sounds like to me.

    #76178
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I am stunned to see this person has been operating for 13 years  !

    apparently …

    quote :

    Victoria is a reputable and qualified behaviourist

    though i cannot find any actual accredited qualifications on her website or any detailed case studies of her work (apart from a few name drops) …

    also – one of her so-called trainers runs a website which sells …

    training discs
    pet corrector spray
    2-3 types of non-pull harness

    wonder why they need to sell those ???

    the only saving grace is that she has a link to LAD !! 

    #76179
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Hi,

    they may be able to help BUT there are too many concerns to tag my name to a reccommendation.

    Claire x

    #76180
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Think the point is Suz it’s not the owner and as the poster is a trainer she has a responsibility to either have a go at retraining this pup or returning it to the owner, not to come on a board and ask about rehoming as she will be liable if it bites someone as she knew it has bitten.

    As you know we have found homes before for dogs on this board but as a moderator I do not want to see a dog that bites find a home via this board.

    If you work in dogs this is the baggage that can come with it, then you either take it on board or walk away.
    In this day and age we must be careful a dangerous dog comes in all sizes as we have often said on here
    Val

    #76181

    Dont worry Val have had it pointed out fairly clearly by Claire.

    Will remove my post.

    #76182
    kizkiznobite
    Member

    if i take on a re-homing case or am re-homing a client’s dog – either after in depth assessments (that can takes hours) and then make the decision that the dog is suitable for re-homing – then i find that home on the basis that i am also part of the deal for remod and future training for the life of the dog…that is contractual – if there has been any aggression or i suspect possible aggression of any type – my insurers are informed the dog is insured and the dogs insurers are informed – the new owners are fully informed and have to have agreed in writing that they understand what they are taking on and management is in place from day one – the original owners sign a different contract to the norm that indemnifies that neither myself or the new owner of any legal damages resulting from any undisclosed propensity to bite or to undelcared bites in varying conditions …..so for example re the above – the waking type bites would be declared and acknowledged and we know that is to be worked on – if the dog then bites outside of that behaviour and we then discover that it has done so at that criteria in the pass then the legal responsibility then returns to the original owner

    all this takes much longer than 24 hours…(am working on such a case now in it’s 12th day and am on third draft of contracts with my solicitor) if i can’t find the time then i can’t find the time – if i cant find the right home then i cant find the right home – if the money is not available for the insurers and legal cover etc and fund raising is not available then it isnt – and as much as i want to save everydog or at least give everydog a second and at times third chance then sometimes it just is not possible but once committed then in my book i am committed to the end and that end may well be me holding the paw on the journey to the rainbow bridge

    i would not have removed this dog for 24 hours nor would i hand him on to others to deal with
    and that is not a criticism of the OP just the way i work….sometimes the heart rules the head and when that happens the other side of the coin – the legalities and moral issues and realism – get lost in the mire

    or in my case with the clumsies  ::) they live here like samtoo…..

    sounds like this dog needs a lot more than….i hope you find him a forever home but my advice would be to consider all implications

    #76183
    kizkiznobite
    Member

    claire does the following answer your question?

    part of the email sent to the owners at the outset re the case mentioned above:

    dog is going for a trail period to prospective new owners…

    ‘can you please send me xxx’s full details – date of birth – reg number – original vacs etc etc as I need them for the adoption contract – I also need your insurance details and you will need to keep up the insurance throughout the trial period …during this period you are still the legal owner – the contract will state that you are putting him into the temporary care of others – they will need to sign the due diligence for that care to protect both you and I – if they agree to keep him after the trial period then an exchange of ownership contract will completed and you will no longer be responsible for him if however he is returned to you after the trail period then as the owner you assume full responsibility once again.’

    #76184
    Anonymous
    Guest

    hi,

    not quite but maybe i didnt word it that well !

    basically what i meant is –

    if the trainer gave dog back to owners and ceased whatever contract is in place to help with behaviour would this remove the liability to her if the owners re-home it and it does bite again or will the fact the contract was once in place and (presumably) she has given the new owners a written assessment prove that she knew and keep liability in place ?

    or put simply – in your case, do you always remain liable if you are “a professional” just because you know the dog is aggressive ?

    claire x

    #76185
    Anonymous
    Guest

    24 hours been & gone wonder what happened ???

    #76186
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I’ve been watching this one closely. I was hoping the OP would return as it does seem there are lots of implications that need more that 24hrs to consider. I wonder what happened with the dog as well.  :-\

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